How thick is Starmer

[Good old]

You still haven't pointed which of them are populist, I can tell if you wish, none of them, Mrs Thatcher reinvigorated the class system, Parliament ever since has become a reflection of that, you were sort of on the right track when you mentioned to Cromwell. New Labour and the Lib Dems are just the same things a reflection of the class system. Populism isn't it is one vote one person with everyone getting a choice in major decisions or you will get more of the same right where we are now.

Populist , is not the answer. Merely asking for something does not make it the right thing to have asked for. Democratic as it may be.
Apart from that what is popular for 51% is not for 49% . The same ability to get things wrong in the overall will still exist and large sections of society will still feel hard done by whether they are or not. It will never truly  represent. Us, the people, only some of. Us, the people. 
Populist as I used it, was only to describe the giving of concessions to placate popular demand right now. Not the unworkable image you give for running our affairs in the future.

[Sheepy]

No ! It's short term populist

You still haven't pointed which of them are populist, I can tell if you wish, none of them, Mrs Thatcher reinvigorated the class system, Parliament ever since has become a reflection of that, you were sort of on the right track when you mentioned to Cromwell. New Labour and the Lib Dems are just the same things a reflection of the class system. Populism isn't it is one vote one person with everyone getting a choice in major decisions or you will get more of the same right where we are now.

[patman post]

Parlours state? We're they in the posh room of a house?

Productive smelling strikes again...

[Sheepy]

No it's everyone's fault. I have explained . The people we put up. That's it isn't it ?.The  people we put up.
I have explained. The people we put up are people . Throw all your labels out, we are humans ,we are the people everyone of us.

Flawed is not an excuse for being raving insane and thinking nobody will notice.

[Good old]

Now it's the plebs fault, make up your mind! Maybe instead of giving then nothing and making them happy how about we just wipe the majority of them out then? you still haven't explained why politicians who put themselves up as the great fixers have fixed feck all?

No it's everyone's fault. I have explained . The people we put up. That's it isn't it ?.The  people we put up.
I have explained. The people we put up are people . Throw all your labels out, we are humans ,we are the people everyone of us.

[Sheepy]

It's not that what you say holds no truths.sheep. It's just that it is the condition of humanity, you seem to object to. We are flawed , and it's that condition we all battle with. Sometimes not to successfully ,I will say. But I have no refuge  to retreat to from dealing with it as it is, and frankly neither do you.

Not so flawed that they will keep voting for their own downfall perhaps.

[Good old]

The old problem reaction solution ploy then, I knew it wouldn't be long before you were begging them to fix what they were part of engineering, no worries because Joe Biden and his corporate master are signing you up from the goodness of his heart for billions of dollars in LNG yet we are pumping gas to the EU at the same time, not like the yanks will use it as carrot and stick at some point. You just can't get your head around these people are insane and it's the blind leading the blind.

It's not that what you say holds no truths.sheep. It's just that it is the condition of humanity, you seem to object to. We are flawed , and it's that condition we all battle with. Sometimes not to successfully ,I will say. But I have no refuge  to retreat to from dealing with it as it is, and frankly neither do you.

[Sheepy]

Yer!  Well God forgive us all for being mere mortals. No one. And no politician is ever going to do more than attain a mixture of success and failure. The only question is how much success and how much failure. No one pretends all our problems can be fixed by politicians, but our problems don't end when people ,politicians,  call them what you like, stop trying to  create a better world .
You seem to think humanity without politicians, or at least the order their activities bring is the answer. Up to now it is humanity that is the problem, it's not someone else's fault ,call them politicians or whatever, we are as we are, it's humanity that creates the problems you describe , and that will not alter.

Now it's the plebs fault, make up your mind! Maybe instead of giving then nothing and making them happy how about we just wipe the majority of them out then? you still haven't explained why politicians who put themselves up as the great fixers have fixed feck all?

[Good old]

Which populists might that be? it seems to me you have exactly the same politicians doing exactly what they have always done and now it is the populists fault. If politicians were capable of fixing anything we wouldn't have had constant boom and busts we would have austerity, we wouldn't have a cost-of-living crisis, we wouldn't have constant recurring recessions, we wouldn't be overcrowded, we wouldn't be facing constant crime waves, we wouldn't lurch from one crisis to the next while you all scream, we can fix it.

Yer!  Well God forgive us all for being mere mortals. No one. And no politician is ever going to do more than attain a mixture of success and failure. The only question is how much success and how much failure. No one pretends all our problems can be fixed by politicians, but our problems don't end when people ,politicians,  call them what you like, stop trying to  create a better world .
You seem to think humanity without politicians, or at least the order their activities bring is the answer. Up to now it is humanity that is the problem, it's not someone else's fault ,call them politicians or whatever, we are as we are, it's humanity that creates the problems you describe , and that will not alter.

[Sheepy]

Which populists might that be? it seems to me you have exactly the same politicians doing exactly what they have always done and now it is the populists fault. If politicians were capable of fixing anything we wouldn't have had constant boom and busts we would have austerity, we wouldn't have a cost-of-living crisis, we wouldn't have constant recurring recessions, we wouldn't be overcrowded, we wouldn't be facing constant crime waves, we wouldn't lurch from one crisis to the next while you all scream, we can fix it.

And I guarantee they will borrow more money and create more debt by bypassing everyone and feed money directly to the corporate boardroom. 

[Sheepy]

No ! It's short term populist , sticking plasters for the cuts incurred from woeful policy decisions spread over twelve years.

Which populists might that be? it seems to me you have exactly the same politicians doing exactly what they have always done and now it is the populists fault. If politicians were capable of fixing anything we wouldn't have had constant boom and busts we would have austerity, we wouldn't have a cost-of-living crisis, we wouldn't have constant recurring recessions, we wouldn't be overcrowded, we wouldn't be facing constant crime waves, we wouldn't lurch from one crisis to the next while you all scream, we can fix it. 

[Sheepy]

Surely we're forgetting why Conservatives won so well and beat down the red wall. It wasn't that Corbyn's manifesto was good or bad it was because Boris was the only one to promise to get Brexit done. Those red votes were leant to stop the chaos of Westminster who had prevaricated for years over honouring the Referendum result. We can't just dismiss that. We are now in a situation where normal service will resume. Starmer only has to give a halfway decent performance to get most of those votes back again. Why? Because those red wall MPs who never expected to win their Constituencies and were green behind the ears panicked that they would lose their seats and income. Thus they aimed at Boris! Some even threatened to cross the floor of the HofC. Why? Because they thought they would be safer on the opposition benches.

It wouldn't have mattered what Corbyn or the Labour left promised unless they vowed to get us out of the EU. They couldn't do that so people moved their X.

Labour has a dire turnout in voters the Tories even worse, so the Lib Dems and Labour can still win with no voters, they still don't have a mandate for any of this, they just pretend they do.

[Sheepy]

Firstly this particular mire is deeper than I can  remember. There can not be any easy answer, so I can not give a definitive answer to that.
I don't think anyone yet has come to terms with just how bad this present situation is, not just for householders, but for businesses across the board, services public and otherwise.
It's that bad it's close to emergency in my opinion, which party politics is only going to make worse. A coalition of great minds is needed, that includes Tory minds, but not exclusively, only genuine statesmen and not adventurers from all quarters.

The old problem reaction solution ploy then, I knew it wouldn't be long before you were begging them to fix what they were part of engineering, no worries because Joe Biden and his corporate master are signing you up from the goodness of his heart for billions of dollars in LNG yet we are pumping gas to the EU at the same time, not like the yanks will use it as carrot and stick at some point. You just can't get your head around these people are insane and it's the blind leading the blind.

[Nick]

Rubbish. Lowering the voting age would cost nothing, likewise abolishing zero hours or extending full workers rights to all from day one. These include, by the way, protections against unfair dismissal.

And capping rents would actually reduce the welfare bill whilst putting more money in working tenants' pockets. Raising the minimum wage would reduce the amount of welfare necessary for low paid workers whilst increasing the tax take from them. And raising the top rate of tax to 50% would increase the tax take, likewise closing as many loopholes as possible.

So yes, these policies would either be cost neutral or would save or raise revenue. Of course, if you yourself are a top rate payer or a profiteering landlord it might restrain your gravy train in the interests of the greater good. But that is fine by me.

You didn't read a single word I said did you? You've just said the same thing over again, and saying it again isn't going to make it right.

Tell me a tax loophole and how you're going to close it.

Where is the money coming from to increase the minimum wage Steve?

[Borchester]

Carpetbaggers

You are probably not far wrong. It is unlikely that the Tories expected to win many of the Red Wall seats so they probably put up no end of no hopers just for the look of the thing.