The biggest we told you so in History

[Nick]

Besides, there are much bigger we-told-you-so's. Examples:

"Don't trust Putin, he's dangerous."
"Leaving the EU will be bad for Britain."
"Going into a fixed coalition with the Tories will backfire on the Lib Dems."
"Trump won't leave the White House gratiously."
"Adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere will cause it to absorb more heat from the sun and to retain it for longer.!

I suppose getting 2 out of 5 right isn't so bad. 

[HDQQ]

It's not the EU that's claiming it can no longer afford national vetoes on foreign policy, but the Chancellor of Germany, equivalent of their prime minister. I don't know much about Olaf Scholz but given our own recent prime ministerial history, one could be forgiven for not taking too much notice of what leaders say.

Besides, there are much bigger we-told-you-so's. Examples:

"Don't trust Putin, he's dangerous."
"Leaving the EU will be bad for Britain."
"Going into a fixed coalition with the Tories will backfire on the Lib Dems."
"Trump won't leave the White House gratiously."
"Adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere will cause it to absorb more heat from the sun and to retain it for longer.
"The Bitcoin bubble will have to burst sometime soon."

[HDQQ]

It's not the EU that's claiming it can no longer afford national vetoes on foreign policy, but the Chancellor of Germany, equivalent of their prime minister. I don't know much about Olaf Scholz but given our own recent prime ministerial history, one could be forgiven for not taking factual accuracy for granted in anything they say.

[Streetwalker]

I wonder what Gerry will say when he is told that Ireland actually exists

That said, I am not really up on the EU either. Why has Ireland only 1/54th of a vote? What happened to the other half (ie 1/54th) ?

It was just a figure I plucked off the top of my head borky but seeing as nobody challenged it I guessed it must have been OK , trust a bean counter to notice .  But 13 Mep's out of 700 or is it 705  is closer to 1/54th than the mentioned 1/27th of the vote .

[GerryT]

Clearly the over 50% was a typo and should have been over 40% as it's 43%.

Clearly it wasn't, because at 43% those 4 countries don't have a majority. Having 43% doesn't get the job done, why mention that ?

You don't think German MEP's vote for what's best for Germany?
Every single argument you come up with relies on the EU being democratic, and it's not. There are hundreds of control mechanisms in place to make sure the minions do as they are told, most of which involve the movement of small green pieces of paper.

What one person thinks is great for a country, say Nuclear energy or Fracking is not the same as another person, say a green MEP. So no, I don't think every MEP would vote the same way. Can you demonstrate with some examples over the past 10 yrs how voting has gone as you describe.
Then you can describe how the Parliament, that doesn't have the power to initiate new legislation can actually steer the ship.

The EU I'm sure has many problems, there will always be corrupt people, but it's systems, checks and balances are democratic.

[GerryT]

You can dress it up however you like you are still getting out voted 

And so is every other country in the EU, Germany with 96 votes, even all voting together, would be short by 257 votes. No one country is in charge. Decisions are by simple or qualifying majority.

Well Im glad its finally been admitted that the only elected body in the EU ,the parliament are just there to rubber stamp legistlation . A formality is  exactly how it works. 
Your right it was one of the issues the people of the UK had with the EU but yes we did know how it worked ,its why we got the hell out of it .

Yes they pretty much rubber stamp new legislation, their main function is the running of the EU, within the boundaries of those laws.

The UK elected it's PM and he takes the seat on the council. He appoints the UK commissioner, but if any country wants to elect their commissioner they can. Would be a real stupid idea though.  The Pm has a mandate and it's best that he appoints a commissioner, that is lets say, sympathetic to his ideas. Lets face it the UK system typically elects a minority Govt. so having a vote for a commissioner could easily throw up a person opposed to the UK PMs agenda.

If we had listened to our politicians we would still be in the EU . For sure they had a gripe about things now and again but it was the  non politicians who were left to tell us of the realities of the socialist programme of the federalists and the ever closer union that we voted to avoid in 2016 .

You mean the suspected socialist programme, those non politicians were on the Russian pay roll, job well done. Let's face it all the brexit promises turned out to be a crock of crap.

[GerryT]

The British understood very well how it worked.

That's why we voted to f**k off.

Fact is, if I have a suggestion that is actually important enough to get the member of parliament worked up, they have access to a procedure where they and they alone can introduce a bill to the house.

The only way legislation gets created in the EU is when the twenty seven appointees put there by the prime ministers and presidents of the countries that appointed, not elected, them agree in their cosy cartel it will be introduced and voted on. Which as you say is a formality.

This is not democracy as we in Britain recognise it.

So you say, but the experts on this site are displaying that they don't understand, so I doubt very much the average person in the UK did. You'll have a new PM soon, who voted he/she into that position ? who voted for the Lords ? especially the Russian spy types that Johnson implanted ?

In the EU 2 of the 3 houses (Council, Parliament) are all elected, that's 732 positions filled. The Commissioners are appointed by each PM, not elected but not like he puts in his brother in law, that's the final 27 positions. No such thing as 100% democratic, look at global index and the UK comes in at 18th in the list of democracies, all you have is a version of democracy, don't go crowing about it, its far from perfect.

If you had wanted your commissioner to be elected then why didn't you petition that MP you mention to get him to introduce a bill to the house and have them change the procedure.

Talking about democracy, what's your thoughts on the changes the UK govt have made in regards to protesting and now helping employers that are screwing employees. What's Next ?

Separatists ? we're not the ones breaking relationships and pulling up the draw bridge behind us.


Edited quote

[Nick]

Yes the commisioners make all the key decisions . National governments put forward candidates to be interviewed ,vetted  and appointed by the President Indeed , every country gets to vote .Voting is mostly by majority vote .You can dress it up however you like you are still getting out voted Well Im glad its finally been admitted that the only elected body in the EU ,the parliament are just there to rubber stamp legistlation . A formality is  exactly how it works.
Your right it was one of the issues the people of the UK had with the EU but yes we did know how it worked ,its why we got the hell out of it .

If we had listened to our politicians we would still be in the EU . For sure they had a gripe about things now and again but it was the  non politicians who were left to tell us of the realities of the socialist programme of the federalists and the ever closer union that we voted to avoid in 2016 .

Like Cameron who went asking for a quid, got told to get lost. Begged for 50p and came back with 5p, telling us what a great deal he had struck with the EU. 

[Nick]

You tell me to wake up. First the 4 leading countries don't have a majority. There are 705 seats, those 4 make up 310, still 43 shy of a +1 majority. Second, do you think all those countries and all those MEPs would agree on a single issue, more delusion.

What party ever got all their MP's to agree on an issue. Plus MEPs are not aligned to a party, in Germany the 96 MEPs come from totally different political parties, Christian democrats (23), Alliance/Greens (21), social democrats (16), Alternative (11) Christian SU in Bavaria (6) etc.... And you think they would all vote for the same proposal

So Germany controls the EU by getting all it's MEP's and France, Spain, Italy plus a couple of other countries to ALL vote Germanies way.  Lets say plus Belgium & the Netherlands join the cabal. All these countries MEPs, to a man, vote for what Germany wants which could be against their own interests. This is starting to sound like a Johnson plan. Or maybe it's Poland.. why would they settle for 10b, they could get 20b or 30b. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist

Clearly the over 50% was a typo and should have been over 40% as it's 43%. 

You don't think German MEP's vote for what's best for Germany?
Every single argument you come up with relies on the EU being democratic, and it's not. There are hundreds of control mechanisms in place to make sure the minions do as they are told, most of which involve the movement of small green pieces of paper. 

[Borchester]

I wonder what Gerry will say when he realises Ireland only actually have  1/54th

I wonder what Gerry will say when he is told that Ireland actually exists 

That said, I am not really up on the EU either. Why has Ireland only 1/54th of a vote? What happened to the other half (ie 1/54th) ?

[Streetwalker]

In response to all above the  key decisions, new laws and the direction the EU takes is driven by the EU commission and Council

Yes the commisioners make all the key decisions . National governments put forward candidates to be interviewed ,vetted  and appointed by the President 

EU commission; Germany has 1 seat, Ireland has 1 seat, every country has 1 seat
EU Council; Germany has 1 seat, Ireland has 1 seat, every country has one seat.

Indeed , every country gets to vote .Voting is mostly by majority vote .

The seats in the EU parliament are proportional to a countries population, but smaller countries get more. That's why IRL has a MEP for every 388k people while Germany has one MEP for every 867k people. The Parliament follows the laws made by the EU Council/Commission.

You can dress it up however you like you are still getting out voted 

So yes 1 country 1 vote, where it matters. Yes the parliament has to ratify the new laws proposed, but that's generally a formality. This was one of the issues the UK had with the EU, people in general just didn't know what it was or how it worked. 

Well Im glad its finally been admitted that the only elected body in the EU ,the parliament are just there to rubber stamp legistlation . A formality is  exactly how it works. 
Your right it was one of the issues the people of the UK had with the EU but yes we did know how it worked ,its why we got the hell out of it .

 They listened to their politicians who blamed everything on the EU and got away with it.

If we had listened to our politicians we would still be in the EU . For sure they had a gripe about things now and again but it was the  non politicians who were left to tell us of the realities of the socialist programme of the federalists and the ever closer union that we voted to avoid in 2016 .

[johnofgwent]

In response to all above the  key decisions, new laws and the direction the EU takes is driven by the EU commission and Council.

So yes 1 country 1 vote, where it matters. Yes the parliament has to ratify the new laws proposed, but that's generally a formality. This was one of the issues the UK had with the EU, people in general just didn't know what it was or how it worked.

The British understood very well how it worked.

That's why we voted to f**k off.

Fact is, if I have a suggestion that is actually important enough to get the member of parliament worked up, they have access to a procedure where they and they alone can introduce a bill to the house.

The only way legislation gets created in the EU is when the twenty seven appointees put there by the prime ministers and presidents of the countries that appointed, not elected, them agree in their cosy cartel it will be introduced and voted on. Which as you say is a formality.

This is not democracy as we in Britain recognise it.

Comment removed

[GerryT]

Does your naivety know no bounds Gerry? Germany has 96 MEPS compared to Slovenia's 8.
Germany, France, Italy and Spain hold over 50% of MEP's and seeing that Italy and Spain are almost 3rd world countries, with untold corruption, they do pretty much what keeps their economies from collapsing. Macron knows which side his bread is buttered on, so does that explain to you how Germany controls the EU? Oh, and BTW, Poland has the next biggest representation in the EU with over 50 MEPS, hence the reason they are kept reasonably quiet with 10 Billion Euros is hush money.

Wake up and smell the coffee Gerry.

The plus numbers are the 26 MEP increases that were handed out, predominately to the top countries after the U.K. vacated 73 seats!!


 

  You tell me to wake up. First the 4 leading countries don't have a majority. There are 705 seats, those 4 make up 310, still 43 shy of a +1 majority. Second, do you think all those countries and all those MEPs would agree on a single issue, more delusion.

What party ever got all their MP's to agree on an issue. Plus MEPs are not aligned to a party, in Germany the 96 MEPs come from totally different political parties, Christian democrats (23), Alliance/Greens (21), social democrats (16), Alternative (11) Christian SU in Bavaria (6) etc.... And you think they would all vote for the same proposal 

 So Germany controls the EU by getting all it's MEP's and France, Spain, Italy plus a couple of other countries to ALL vote Germanies way.  Lets say plus Belgium & the Netherlands join the cabal. All these countries MEPs, to a man, vote for what Germany wants which could be against their own interests. This is starting to sound like a Johnson plan. Or maybe it's Poland.. why would they settle for 10b, they could get 20b or 30b. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist

[GerryT]

In response to all above the  key decisions, new laws and the direction the EU takes is driven by the EU commission and Council.

EU commission; Germany has 1 seat, Ireland has 1 seat, every country has 1 seat
EU Council; Germany has 1 seat, Ireland has 1 seat, every country has one seat.

The seats in the EU parliament are proportional to a countries population, but smaller countries get more. That's why IRL has a MEP for every 388k people while Germany has one MEP for every 867k people. The Parliament follows the laws made by the EU Council/Commission. 

So yes 1 country 1 vote, where it matters. Yes the parliament has to ratify the new laws proposed, but that's generally a formality. This was one of the issues the UK had with the EU, people in general just didn't know what it was or how it worked. They listened to their politicians who blamed everything on the EU and got away with it.

[johnofgwent]

But Germany only has 1/27th of a vote SW. 😂

In terms of actually initiating legislation, when I went to see the place and how it worked the main issue I saw was while votes were cast by MEPs they seemed to have no open and obvious way to bring an issue to the table as Westminster MPs can. Policy as initiated by the (then 27) ministers nominated by the prime minister's and presidents. But we've been over this before.