So, what was the point of Brexit?

[Nick]

Why would the UK national be claiming benefits, the EU national doing that work for that same money isn't claiming any benefits.

The U.K. national is claiming benefits because he's getting his house paid for and claiming child benefits, the 6 pound an hour doesn't cover his bills. The EU workers as a rule don't have any children with them and are living in communes all sharing the bills.

[GerryT]

Gerry, they live in a family home that is designed for 2 adults and X children. 6 adults in that same home are paying way less proportionally that the family unit. 
How are they going to be sent home for not having money inside the EU? Do you think a light comes on in an office if a migrant runs out of money? 

To the landlord they are paying the same amount of money. I've no idea what your saying about lights, offices and migrants.

The difference with a U.K. national working on a farm and claiming benefits is that his neighbour will see them leave every morning and return every evening and dob them in, the EU worker lives in their little EU worker bubble and doesn't spill the beans down the pub. 
The black economy EU worker before we left the EU contributed zero to the U.K. and put a massive load on our services. 

Why would the UK national be claiming benefits, the EU national doing that work for that same money isn't claiming any benefits.

The reason that EU national isn't contributing is because of crooked UK employers taking advantage. If the UK used their power to make better tax laws that wouldn't happen (note it will always happen, but the amount that would take the risk would greatly reduce). Introduce proper tax legislation and the threat of 100k fines will sort all that out.

How are farmers getting this done now, are UK nationals doing the work, is black market non tax paying practices a thing of the past, have wages risen, whats the price of food like

[Nick]

So much wrong with that post. I'm not doubting it but lets examine your points:
First they stay as long as they want. Well that's great news, because they are spending their money on accommodation, food, petrol etc... They can't claim any benefits or housing and can be sent home if they run out of money and can't support themselves
Second they send money home, who cares, people don't spend all they earn, if they are in the UK they are spending to live.
Next They pay no tax, again a total UK issue. The Employer that is going to do that will just as easily pay a UK national under the counter. As pointed out in another post this is very easily fixed.
Their buying fuel, oil, tyres, maintenance etc. Road tax is a point as they don't pay in that case.
Using the NHS, the UK is fully entitled to send a bill for any NHS use to the persons country and that gets reimbursed straight away. This could be a hugh money spinner for the NHS, say 850 a night in a bed or 160 to see a doctor or a specialist 350, could get a hugh profit there. Why is it the UK didn't do that, must have lost billions over the years.

Gerry, they live in a family home that is designed for 2 adults and X children. 6 adults in that same home are paying way less proportionally that the family unit. 
How are they going to be sent home for not having money inside the EU? Do you think a light comes on in an office if a migrant runs out of money? 

The difference with a U.K. national working on a farm and claiming benefits is that his neighbour will see them leave every morning and return every evening and dob them in, the EU worker lives in their little EU worker bubble and doesn't spill the beans down the pub. 
The black economy EU worker before we left the EU contributed zero to the U.K. and put a massive load on our services. 

[GerryT]

They didn't need to disclose how long they were coming for, they'd come on a RyanAir flight for £99 or on the ferry and stay for as long they as they wanted. Sending money back home by PayPal and paying no tax as they were working in the black economy. They drove around on their countries plates, paid no road tax, no NIC's but used the NHS and you wonder why it is on its knees.

So much wrong with that post. I'm not doubting it but lets examine your points:
First they stay as long as they want. Well that's great news, because they are spending their money on accommodation, food, petrol etc... They can't claim any benefits or housing and can be sent home if they run out of money and can't support themselves
Second they send money home, who cares, people don't spend all they earn, if they are in the UK they are spending to live.
Next They pay no tax, again a total UK issue. The Employer that is going to do that will just as easily pay a UK national under the counter. As pointed out in another post this is very easily fixed.
Their buying fuel, oil, tyres, maintenance etc. Road tax is a point as they don't pay in that case.
Using the NHS, the UK is fully entitled to send a bill for any NHS use to the persons country and that gets reimbursed straight away. This could be a hugh money spinner for the NHS, say 850 a night in a bed or 160 to see a doctor or a specialist 350, could get a hugh profit there. Why is it the UK didn't do that, must have lost billions over the years.

[Nick]

When you were in the EU, if they had no means to pay for their stay for 6 months then they could have been shipped home. They had no right to collect social payments, housing etc.. Unlike refugees where they get all that stuff for free form day 1.

The seasonal workers make a career out of it, going from country to country picking different seasonal crops. Its back breaking and skilled work. They had no wish to stay in the UK and came/left each yr.

They didn't need to disclose how long they were coming for, they'd come on a RyanAir flight for £99 or on the ferry and stay for as long they as they wanted. Sending money back home by PayPal and paying no tax as they were working in the black economy. They drove around on their countries plates, paid no road tax, no NIC's but used the NHS and you wonder why it is on its knees. 

[Nick]

I do understand, if an inspector walks in to your fathers business and finds 4 people that were there for 2 yrs working like that. Then the tax man nets up the earnings to calculate the tax your dad would owe. So £8 take home would be say £12 gross £4 tax say £1 NI and thats revenue down £5/hr. Say 1800hrs a yr for 2 yrs = £18,000 that your father has to pay, as he should be deducting at source. If he has 3 employees doing that, then its 54k. The tax man adds interest, call it 3k and penalties, say approx 80% of the tax not paid, another 43k and your dad has a 100k bill for 3 illegal employees over 2 yrs. More illegal employees over a longer period and your bankrupt. A tax clearance and tax at source system greatly reduces the number of employers that will take the risk of not going through legal systems. That's how it works in IRL. People have tried to beat the system using these illegals as "self employed contractors" but the tax man has systems to test that, very very very hard to beat. The problem is your Govt and their systems, that symple.
No he doesn't, because he can now do exactly what he did before, he can pay the migrant exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons. What incentive is there for him to pay that person the 9 and not 8. The person is legally in the UK but he can work Illegally. Just as the EU person was legally in the UK and worked illegally. In both cases the fault is with the employer and govt systems for catching that. It's not the migrants fault for UK people taking advantage of them.
How has it shout down corruption, people will still work under the counter. All that brexit did was make farmers exporting to the EU very very difficult, fresh product demands a strong price. Frozen product gets a lower price (gar some like peas). So the farmer can export but the high quality high price markets are now out of reach with the added business costs. They can sell to other markets, thousands of miles away, but the price they get is less. Plus nobody is getting better wages, to compete the farmer is under more pressure to suppress wages.
I don't know about the quota issue, I take what you say at face value. But they have been operating and making money for decades inside the EU, if they have the same, or what I understand now larger quotas, how is it now putting people out of business. same thing as above Brexit. Delays, paperwork is affecting fishing. I would need a good report on the fishing industry to understand better but I have yet to see one since leaving. I'm sure it will come along soon enough and hopefully the actual facts will be outlayed.

You're looking at it in a very simplistic way. Unless HMRC actually catch people working on the farm illegally how will they know. HMRC / Border force haven't got the resources to do that kind of thing, and they only do it when there is a tip-off. 

[GerryT]

The difference with the EU workforce here currently is that once the job ends, they fly back home.

When you were in the EU, if they had no means to pay for their stay for 6 months then they could have been shipped home. They had no right to collect social payments, housing etc.. Unlike refugees where they get all that stuff for free form day 1.

The seasonal workers make a career out of it, going from country to country picking different seasonal crops. Its back breaking and skilled work. They had no wish to stay in the UK and came/left each yr.

[Baff]

The difference with the EU workforce here currently is that once the job ends, they fly back home.

[GerryT]

You're either being obstroculous on purpose or you don't get it. 

Mr and Mrs Romania tip up at immigration show an EU passport and they clear the border with zero questions except where have you come from. They can go and work at Tesco for £9 an hour, pay tax / NIC's and come out with £6 an hour. That £9 an hour when you've factored in holiday pay, sickness, employers NIC'c, WPP costs about £12 an hour. Mr farmer points out to Mr and Mrs Romania that if they were legit they'd only get £6 an hour but if they work for cash he'll pay them £8 an hour, saving him 50% on his wage bill. If you don't understand that then it's pointless continuing. 

I do understand, if an inspector walks in to your fathers business and finds 4 people that were there for 2 yrs working like that. Then the tax man nets up the earnings to calculate the tax your dad would owe. So £8 take home would be say £12 gross £4 tax say £1 NI and thats revenue down £5/hr. Say 1800hrs a yr for 2 yrs = £18,000 that your father has to pay, as he should be deducting at source. If he has 3 employees doing that, then its 54k. The tax man adds interest, call it 3k and penalties, say approx 80% of the tax not paid, another 43k and your dad has a 100k bill for 3 illegal employees over 2 yrs. More illegal employees over a longer period and your bankrupt. A tax clearance and tax at source system greatly reduces the number of employers that will take the risk of not going through legal systems. That's how it works in IRL. People have tried to beat the system using these illegals as "self employed contractors" but the tax man has systems to test that, very very very hard to beat. The problem is your Govt and their systems, that symple.

Now, anyone entering the U.K. is registered and the reason they're here is registered, Mr Farmer has to pay real wages now and can't play the system to the level he did before. 

No he doesn't, because he can now do exactly what he did before, he can pay the migrant exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons. What incentive is there for him to pay that person the 9 and not 8. The person is legally in the UK but he can work Illegally. Just as the EU person was legally in the UK and worked illegally. In both cases the fault is with the employer and govt systems for catching that. It's not the migrants fault for UK people taking advantage of them.

The irony is that the likes of Steve and PS say that Brexit has ruined the farmers businesses when in fact Brexit has shut down massive corruption. They then jump up and down about corruption in the Conservative Party and want it shut down. 

How has it shout down corruption, people will still work under the counter. All that brexit did was make farmers exporting to the EU very very difficult, fresh product demands a strong price. Frozen product gets a lower price (gar some like peas). So the farmer can export but the high quality high price markets are now out of reach with the added business costs. They can sell to other markets, thousands of miles away, but the price they get is less. Plus nobody is getting better wages, to compete the farmer is under more pressure to suppress wages.

UK fishermen suffered a similar fate when quotas came in, not cause of staffing but because they'd been lying to the tax man about their catch for decades. And when they got the quota that they had falsely been given to HMRC they suffered. 

Either you want a legal system or you don't. 

I don't know about the quota issue, I take what you say at face value. But they have been operating and making money for decades inside the EU, if they have the same, or what I understand now larger quotas, how is it now putting people out of business. same thing as above Brexit. Delays, paperwork is affecting fishing. I would need a good report on the fishing industry to understand better but I have yet to see one since leaving. I'm sure it will come along soon enough and hopefully the actual facts will be outlayed.

[Baff]

You're very much mistaken about your asylum system. It used to be great, well, like other countries, not any better. Now you have a shit system. Your new laws, the anti asylum laws, preclude Asylum seekers claiming asylum if they reach the UK illegally. There are very few legal routes to claim asylum outside the UK. Ukrainians can, and so can a couple of other places, but not many. Illegals get shipped to Rwanda, that part has been mired with legal challenges and rightly so. To think your system is good is ludicrous. You CAN'T show up at the UK and claim asylum unless you are on the "special list", everyone that does is classed illegal.
The UNHCR claims parts of the UK system are unlawful.
https://www.rescue.org/uk/article/claiming-asylum-uk-facts?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_P6dBhD1ARIsAAGI7HBMHAGkRmoplmPJsJOVFFtnTK7WPTfEDeCg3RbmuzA1KTqSU9IWJBMaAq_0EALw_wcB

As for Ukraine, the UK got a lot of criticism in how it first setup asylum for Ukr people, first only UKR people with relatives could apply, the UK got blasted in Europe for that. Then all applicants needed passports, including children and also needed an address of a UK sponsor, crazy crap. Has that changed ?  BUt in summary the 67million UK country took in 134k UKR refugees. IRL 5.5m took in 62k. Twice the number of people for 13 times the population, stop boasting, it's embarrassing.  Any country helping should be applauded but your crowing of how great the UK is and others are bad is very low class.
Yes the UK goes to war, Iraq weapons of mass destruction is one, in IRL was another, going around the world taking countries in the name of empire. But in Ukraine where we are discussing, no you're not at war. All you did for the people of IRL was starve 2million to death by exporting all the food we made, have you forgotten your primary schooling, yea you set the bar really high.
We spent 800yrs at war with an oppressive country abusing us. You think the DUP are fantastic 20% of 2m people support them, that's 400k people that controlled May then Johnson in the brexit deal.

It might surprise you to know that IRL had 1.9m immigrants since 1992, that's 34% of our 5.5m population. The 10m on 67m is 15%, per 1000 you have less migrants than IRL. Stop blaming the failings of the UK on migrants, or the EU. The problems in the UK are UK peoples problems, face reality. 
Yawn. Not migrants fault. Successive UK shit govt's making bad decisions. Change your voting system, that would help.

What does the UNHCR have to say about how you treat the descendants of migrants 800 years after their ancestors migrated?
If you were thinking that anyone is looking at you to provide role model, you are sadly mistaken.



The UK is great mate.
Love it here. Millions of people around the world wish to move here.
I wonder why?

Is it because the UNHCR says we are going to treat them illegally perhaps?


We don't want "many people" to claim asylum here.
That's not the idea.
Just some of the most in need of it. A select few.

It's not our goal in life to be Mother Theresa and dedicate our society to the betterment of others.
We're up for doing something along those lines, but exactly how much charity we wish to extend and to who is something we will be deciding for ourselves.

If by your own example you wish to set us a better example, be our guest. I'm sure all those needy people in the world will love you for it.

[GerryT]

You suggesting we introduce more central control there Gerry? isn't that another assault on freedom in itself?

That's not central control, that's a more efficient tax system so everyone pays. That benefits all society. Anyone that wants a free for all just wants to take, not give.

[GerryT]

The UK has a very generous system in place to support people who's lives are in danger.
Not migrants.
Asylum applicants.

You would like to pretend that they have to arrive here illegally by boat to be granted asylum.
We all know this is not the case.

They may arrive here legally and they may also apply from abroad.
As the UK typically sets up opportunities for application locally to the problems. As you can currently see taking place for Ukrainians.
Does your country do that?
Of course not.

You're very much mistaken about your asylum system. It used to be great, well, like other countries, not any better. Now you have a shit system. Your new laws, the anti asylum laws, preclude Asylum seekers claiming asylum if they reach the UK illegally. There are very few legal routes to claim asylum outside the UK. Ukrainians can, and so can a couple of other places, but not many. Illegals get shipped to Rwanda, that part has been mired with legal challenges and rightly so. To think your system is good is ludicrous. You CAN'T show up at the UK and claim asylum unless you are on the "special list", everyone that does is classed illegal.
The UNHCR claims parts of the UK system are unlawful.
https://www.rescue.org/uk/article/claiming-asylum-uk-facts?gclid=Cj0KCQiA_P6dBhD1ARIsAAGI7HBMHAGkRmoplmPJsJOVFFtnTK7WPTfEDeCg3RbmuzA1KTqSU9IWJBMaAq_0EALw_wcB 

As for Ukraine, the UK got a lot of criticism in how it first setup asylum for Ukr people, first only UKR people with relatives could apply, the UK got blasted in Europe for that. Then all applicants needed passports, including children and also needed an address of a UK sponsor, crazy crap. Has that changed ?  BUt in summary the 67million UK country took in 134k UKR refugees. IRL 5.5m took in 62k. Twice the number of people for 13 times the population, stop boasting, it's embarrassing.  Any country helping should be applauded but your crowing of how great the UK is and others are bad is very low class.

And that is the very least of what we do. Up to and including going to war and giving our lives in person to protect these people.
Just as indeed we had to do for the people of Ireland. Who were being lethally abused by the the other people of Ireland. Until we intervened. At great expense and at the cost of many of our own lives.

You don't meet the bar we have set for the world.
And your answer to this is not to raise your own game but to denigrate ours.
I go deaf.

Yes the UK goes to war, Iraq weapons of mass destruction is one, in IRL was another, going around the world taking countries in the name of empire. But in Ukraine where we are discussing, no you're not at war. All you did for the people of IRL was starve 2million to death by exporting all the food we made, have you forgotten your primary schooling, yea you set the bar really high.

It's great that you love migration.
Brilliant.

Great that you approve of it.
You should encourage more of it where you live.

We on the other hand have a scale of migration here that causes serious problems for us.
You can say how fantastic this all is, but it isn't all fantastic.

Your island has spent 800 years at war with it's own migrants.
I don't see you telling us how fantastic the DUP are and that they have benefitted you.
How deep your love for protestants is. What a great contribution they have made.


Recognise the obvious truth.
There are serious issues produced from mass migration.
Very serious issues.


Successful migrants. Brilliant.
I'd like to be one myself.

I very much love my Foreign Mrs. And her country is nothing like as accepting of migration as our own. (Nor is yours, BTW).

We spent 800yrs at war with an oppressive country abusing us. You think the DUP are fantastic  20% of 2m people support them, that's 400k people that controlled May then Johnson in the brexit deal. 

It might surprise you to know that IRL had 1.9m immigrants since 1992, that's 34% of our 5.5m population. The 10m on 67m is 15%, per 1000 you have less migrants than IRL. Stop blaming the failings of the UK on migrants, or the EU. The problems in the UK are UK peoples problems, face reality.  

But that doesn't take away from anyone else's problems.
Such as lower wages, more expensive housing. Competition for school and hospital places.
Traffic congestion.
Social unrest. To name but a few.

Great. Freddy Mercury was a good singer. Brilliant. Well done.
Einstein had a big brain. Amazing.

We welcome such migrants.
It's the other 10 million we don't value as much.


They are not a burden to you, obviously.
Well done you.

But for people who live here, there are consequences.
And this is basically mirrored in all countries.
The social norm.


Such people who express these concerns are not "far right". They are the centre.
Where most people are at.
Mass migration = very f**king bad news.


You can keep telling us it's good news, but you can't tell us it's good news and still have us all elect you as our leader.
This is typically a top 3 polling issue in any election in any country of the world.

Yawn. Not migrants fault. Successive UK shit govt's making bad decisions. Change your voting system, that would help.

[Baff]

Long post, but some comments. Yes the UK has 10m additional people that were non UK born, but to think they were all a burden is ridiculous. I read a while back that the average immigrant in the UK contributes more to the economy that the average UK national. That says it all, more people requires more services, yes. But the people you're talking about contribute more and are raising your standard of living, contrary to your belief.
Irish terror bombers, they were freedom fighters. You shouldn't have taken their land and killed millions of them in the first place.
The Irish are happy with taking migrants, what glue are you sniffing, what issues do Irish people have with Migrants ?

You miss the point, the UK is implementing a system to refuse migrants the chance to claim asylum. How many you take is another question, but kicking them to Rwanda is obscene.  You don't care but million of britons do.

Yes with America and most other developed countries once you're there you can claim Asylum. With the UK you can't. You have to be in the UK to claim Asylum legally. The UK has a short list of places that can be in the UK to claim Asylum, the rest have to go to Rwanda. Previously people showed in the UK, their Asylum application was processed and those eligible were allowed in the rest were returned. That way you control the numbers. No body is suggest you take everyone that shows up.

I'm not confused what a migrant is. You might be, to help, what a UK person calls an ex-pat is actually a migrant. You should call your buddy's living in Europe migrants because that's what they are. Your idea what a migrant is belongs in the Nigel Farage bucket. America is a country of nothing but migrants. Name a country in the world that hasn't got migrants. Some of the most successful people are migrants: Einstein being one, your PM is the child of migrants, Freddy Mercury became a very successful migrant. Sergey Brin, Levi Strauss..migrants. The list goes on and on. You have a fear of bomb yielding child raping migrants, they exist but they exist in the UK long before any migrants came.

The UK has a very generous system in place to support people who's lives are in danger.
Not migrants.
Asylum applicants.

You would like to pretend that they have to arrive here illegally by boat to be granted asylum.
We all know this is not the case.

They may arrive here legally and they may also apply from abroad.
As the UK typically sets up opportunities for application locally to the problems. As you can currently see taking place for Ukrainians.
Does your country do that?
Of course not.

And that is the very least of what we do. Up to and including going to war and giving our lives in person to protect these people.
Just as indeed we had to do for the people of Ireland. Who were being lethally abused by the the other people of Ireland. Until we intervened. At great expense and at the cost of many of our own lives.

You don't meet the bar we have set for the world.
And your answer to this is not to raise your own game but to denigrate ours.
I go deaf.






It's great that you love migration.
Brilliant.

Great that you approve of it.
You should encourage more of it where you live.

We on the other hand have a scale of migration here that causes serious problems for us.
You can say how fantastic this all is, but it isn't all fantastic.

Your island has spent 800 years at war with it's own migrants.
I don't see you telling us how fantastic the DUP are and that they have benefitted you.
How deep your love for protestants is. What a great contribution they have made.


Recognise the obvious truth.
There are serious issues produced from mass migration.
Very serious issues.


Successful migrants. Brilliant.
I'd like to be one myself.

I very much love my Foreign Mrs. And her country is nothing like as accepting of migration as our own. (Nor is yours, BTW).


But that doesn't take away from anyone else's problems.
Such as lower wages, more expensive housing. Competition for school and hospital places.
Traffic congestion.
Social unrest. To name but a few.

Great. Freddy Mercury was a good singer. Brilliant. Well done.
Einstein had a big brain. Amazing.

We welcome such migrants.
It's the other 10 million we don't value as much.


They are not a burden to you, obviously.
Well done you.

But for people who live here, there are consequences.
And this is basically mirrored in all countries.
The social norm.


Such people who express these concerns are not "far right". They are the centre.
Where most people are at.
Mass migration = very f**king bad news.


You can keep telling us it's good news, but you can't tell us it's good news and still have us all elect you as our leader.
This is typically a top 3 polling issue in any election in any country of the world.

[Nick]

Well now you have the answer, introduce a system where all employees have to be paid via bank payment. That would capture cash payments and collect the tax revenue. In IRL if a person is being paid more than 3k and they don't have a tax clearance cert then the employer has to stop the tax at source.  There are so many systems that the UK Govt could introduce, if they wanted to.Those beggar's make a very good living, add on the state benefits and free housing. If people hand out lots of money then people will be there to take it. We have our own home grown beggars also, they must be hating the competition.
You see we let them in, you fly them to Rwanda.

You're either being obstroculous on purpose or you don't get it. 

Mr and Mrs Romania tip up at immigration show an EU passport and they clear the border with zero questions except where have you come from. They can go and work at Tesco for £9 an hour, pay tax / NIC's and come out with £6 an hour. That £9 an hour when you've factored in holiday pay, sickness, employers NIC'c, WPP costs about £12 an hour. Mr farmer points out to Mr and Mrs Romania that if they were legit they'd only get £6 an hour but if they work for cash he'll pay them £8 an hour, saving him 50% on his wage bill. If you don't understand that then it's pointless continuing. 

Now, anyone entering the U.K. is registered and the reason they're here is registered, Mr Farmer has to pay real wages now and can't play the system to the level he did before. 

The irony is that the likes of Steve and PS say that Brexit has ruined the farmers businesses when in fact Brexit has shut down massive corruption. They then jump up and down about corruption in the Conservative Party and want it shut down. 

UK fishermen suffered a similar fate when quotas came in, not cause of staffing but because they'd been lying to the tax man about their catch for decades. And when they got the quota that they had falsely been given to HMRC they suffered. 

Either you want a legal system or you don't. 

[Sheepy]

Well now you have the answer, introduce a system where all employees have to be paid via bank payment. That would capture cash payments and collect the tax revenue. In IRL if a person is being paid more than 3k and they don't have a tax clearance cert then the employer has to stop the tax at source.  There are so many systems that the UK Govt could introduce, if they wanted to.Those beggar's make a very good living, add on the state benefits and free housing. If people hand out lots of money then people will be there to take it. We have our own home grown beggars also, they must be hating the competition.
You see we let them in, you fly them to Rwanda.

You suggesting we introduce more central control there Gerry? isn't that another assault on freedom in itself?