Workers suffer record pay slump in face of rocketing inflation

[srb7677]

That's your heart telling your head what it wants to hear. It may not even be self service tills, it might go straight to no tills like the smart stores in London.

It may well be gradually heading in that direction but it can only go as far as the public  will go along with. Get too far ahead of the public and they'll lose out to others. They need to carry the public with them. It is all down to what the public wants. Failure to supply what they want will lose customers to those that do which is why it is a gradual process. And there are always likely to be some who prefer manned checkouts, a demand that someone will supply. Crapping over what the public wants will backfire in what is a competitive sector, and those in charge have a better understanding of that than you obviously do. Which is why change is gradual and likely to continue to be so.

[Nick]

Not everybody can be a ceo an mp business owner,humans are all different and be respected after all you'll be up to your armpits in crap and rats without the binmen,the street cleaners,sewage coming up your drains without those workers.

As it is because of the utterly failed utility sell off raw sewage is dumped in lakes rivers and seas because dividends come first and stuff the investment.

MP's got a substantial rise along with their expenses,riverside bar,heavily subsidised food,anyone see recently the criminal waste of unused food at the Palace of Westminster.

Still let's point and laugh at people like Steve,no works bar,subsidised food and drink or expenses doesn't even get a paid break,imagine if he fell asleep at the checkout or was viewing porn on his phone.

Whilst you point out the coming AI and less need for for eg checkout workers all more automation someone better have a good plan because if you think the plebs will be crapped on without complaint they're in for a big wake up call.

A massive overreaction there. Firstly nobody is laughing a Steve, I'm just pointing out that pay rises do almost nothing to improve peoples lot, it has to be a positive push forward or anything gained is negated by external forces. 

[T00ts]

Not experiencingh yet more de facto pay cuts when profits, dividends and CEO psy is soaring is not an unreasonable request.

Yet you seem to find this as outrageous. Do you actually think we should all accept getting poorer year after year? Because if you think thzt is reasonable you asre out of touch and in for a shock and inviting an economic collapse. Greed will come back and bite the greedy here but they don't seem to care.

No it isn't. Striking to twist everyone's arms causing hardship to all is unreasonable. 

[srb7677]

Yet you ignore the investors who with their share purchases keep companies afloat and begrudge them any dividends. Yes I agree that P&O was dreadful but as a foreign company perhaps they couldn't be legally punished. I don't know what the reason was. Does anyone?

Companies have to make a profit even though to many it is a dirty word. They have to make enough profit in good years to survive bad ones. This is a bad one and we don't know how long it will last. The trouble with wanting more at the beginning of what could be a recession is that you will kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Then everyone will lose. It's not that offers are not on the table but it seems to me that the Union demands are more not just pay but in the case of rail workers protection of working practices that are outdated and counterproductive. With the best will in the world no employer can or should promise the world to workers. It is a short term view and they are paid to be able to read the crystal ball.

I have already heard of small business owners trying hard to keep employees regardless of reduced takings and rising costs and taking evening jobs to be able to pay themselves something rather than be another cost on the business. It's going to be tough but striking isn't the way forward.

Not experiencingh yet more de facto pay cuts when profits, dividends and CEO pay is soaring is not an unreasonable request.

Yet you seem to find this as outrageous. Do you actually think we should all accept getting poorer year after year? Because if you think thzt is reasonable you are out of touch and in for a shock and inviting an economic collapse. Greed will come back and bite the greedy here but they don't seem to care.

[Nick]

I doubt it. They are too focussed upon trying to poach customers from each other and maintain or expand market share.

If lots of customers refuse to use self service machines there is always going to be someone like Aldi or Lidl - who don't for the most part use such machines - ready to take advantage by sweeping up those customers.

Because essentially customer service functions by responding to demand. The widespread reluctance by some to use such machines will need to diminish before stores could do away with most of them without losing customers.

You are a capitalist so ought to understand this. Where there is demand for something - including a desire to be served at a manned checkout - someone will supply that demand. The supermarkets know this which is why they cannot even collectively fly in the face of what their customers want. If they do, someone will take advantage of that and steal some of their customers, recognising the opportunity. The demand for manned checkouts needs to diminish substantially before more of them can be done away with. This is what some companies are trying to gradually achieve.

Plus the notion of every store in the land instantaneously switching emtirely to self service overnight is utterly unworkable. There isn't the trained manpower capable of converting every store in the land simultaneously overnight. It would take weeks if not months and require legally dubious cartel style cooperation even then. And the first ones to switch would lose customers to the ones that haven't yet switched, especially in large cities where there are often multiple supermarket options. You will start to notice - and companies will notice - that the stores that havent yet switched are gaining customers at the expense of those that have, which is highly likely to force a rethink.

This is why companies cannot afford to get ahead of the public on this.

That's your heart telling your head what it wants to hear. It may not even be self service tills, it might go straight to no tills like the smart stores in London. 

[T00ts]

Indeed, most of us cynically knew they'd be allowed to get away with it with impunity, even if it's illegal. Which sets a terrible precedent for the rest of the workforce.

As for Toots saying that the present MO of striking as a last resort is innefective, what else would she suggest as an alternative? The only things the typical company bosses understand is the bottom line. The only effective power a workforce collectively has is by the withdrawal of labour to make it more costly for a company not to maintain real terms wages than to maintain them, or to have that threat in their arsenal in negotiations. Real terms pay cuts whilst profits, dividends, and executive pay soars is so blatently taking the piss that it is almost calculated to create angry workers more willing to fight and to strike.

Yet you ignore the investors who with their share purchases keep companies afloat and begrudge them any dividends. Yes I agree that P&O was dreadful but as a foreign company perhaps they couldn't be legally punished. I don't know what the reason was. Does anyone?

Companies have to make a profit even though to many it is a dirty word. They have to make enough profit in good years to survive bad ones. This is a bad one and we don't know how long it will last. The trouble with wanting more at the beginning of what could be a recession is that you will kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Then everyone will lose. It's not that offers are not on the table but it seems to me that the Union demands are more not just pay but in the case of rail workers protection of working practices that are outdated and counterproductive. With the best will in the world no employer can or should promise the world to workers. It is a short term view and they are paid to be able to read the crystal ball.

I have already heard of small business owners trying hard to keep employees regardless of reduced takings and rising costs and taking evening jobs to be able to pay themselves something rather than be another cost on the business. It's going to be tough but striking isn't the way forward.

[srb7677]

When you get a flat refusal they're left with little choice and let's look at P&O again and their criminality,and no case will be brought....what a surprise,not.

Indeed, most of us cynically knew they'd be allowed to get away with it with impunity, even if it's illegal. Which sets a terrible precedent for the rest of the workforce.

As for Toots saying that the present MO of striking as a last resort is innefective, what else would she suggest as an alternative? The only things the typical company bosses understand is the bottom line. The only effective power a workforce collectively has is by the withdrawal of labour to make it more costly for a company not to maintain real terms wages than to maintain them, or to have that threat in their arsenal in negotiations. Real terms pay cuts whilst profits, dividends, and executive pay soars is so blatently taking the piss that it is almost calculated to create angry workers more willing to fight and to strike.

[cromwell]

Then they had better get better at arguing their point with their bosses because the present MO doesn't work and damages everyone. Perhaps they need to improve their Union negotiators.

When you get a flat refusal they're left with little choice and let's look at P&O again and their criminality,and no case will be brought....what a surprise,not.

[srb7677]

imagine if he fell asleep at the checkout or was viewing porn on his phone.

If I were caught doing the latter whilst sat on a checkout I know with absolute certainty what the outcome would be. Out on my arse and a speedy reaquaintance with my P45. In all likelihood even if doing so in the staff canteen would get me the sack

As for the former, there would certainly be a full investigatory meeting and likely disciplinary proceedings though mitigating factors would be considered. Help might be offered but I reckon keeping my job would be less than 50 50 to happen. Definite final warning plus stringent conditions involving occupational health a definite minimum.

[srb7677]

The thing you constantly overlook with your socialist specs on Steve is that wage increases are one of the key drivers behind inflation.

That is demonstrably not the case right now. With the obvious exception of inflation busting pay rises for CEOs no one is getting a pay rise remotely close to the rate of inflation right now. So the only pay rises contributing towards inflation are those at the top.

[srb7677]

The top 10% have almost half the taxable income you say? They pay 90% of the tax!! I thank you for making my point.

Not if you include all other taxes, like National Insurance, VAT, Council Tax, fuel duties, etc.

What you also fail to understand is that the tax they pay is a reflection of how grossly overpaid they are. Were they not such greedy bastards and paid themselves a little less and their workers a little more, they would pay less tax and their workers would pay more.

Such levels of tax are actually a reflection of grotesque inequality, and not - as you so often seem to assume - a justification for even more of it

[T00ts]

Not everybody can be a ceo an mp business owner,humans are all different and be respected after all you'll be up to your armpits in crap and rats without the binmen,the street cleaners,sewage coming up your drains without those workers.

As it is because of the utterly failed utility sell off raw sewage is dumped in lakes rivers and seas because dividends come first and stuff the investment.

MP's got a substantial rise along with their expenses,riverside bar,heavily subsidised food,anyone see recently the criminal waste of unused food at the Palace of Westminster.

Still let's point and laugh at people like Steve,no works bar,subsidised food and drink or expenses doesn't even get a paid break,imagine if he fell asleep at the checkout or was viewing porn on his phone.

Whilst you point out the coming AI and less need for for eg checkout workers all more automation someone better have a good plan because if you think the plebs will be crapped on without complaint they're in for a big wake up call.

Then they had better get better at arguing their point with their bosses because the present MO doesn't work and damages everyone. Perhaps they need to improve their Union negotiators. 

[cromwell]

Not everybody can be a ceo an mp business owner,humans are all different and be respected after all you'll be up to your armpits in crap and rats without the binmen,the street cleaners,sewage coming up your drains without those workers.

As it is because of the utterly failed utility sell off raw sewage is dumped in lakes rivers and seas because dividends come first and stuff the investment.

MP's got a substantial rise along with their expenses,riverside bar,heavily subsidised food,anyone see recently the criminal waste of unused food at the Palace of Westminster.

Still let's point and laugh at people like Steve,no works bar,subsidised food and drink or expenses doesn't even get a paid break,imagine if he fell asleep at the checkout or was viewing porn on his phone.

Whilst you point out the coming AI and less need for for eg checkout workers all more automation someone better have a good plan because if you think the plebs will be crapped on without complaint they're in for a big wake up call.

[Nick]

I think it is pretty naive to expect workers to accept de facto pay cuts year after year, and not expect them to at some point, via their unions, say that enough is enough. And workers decide whether to strike via ballots, not union leaders who mostly lead in negotiations on behalf of workers after they have voted to strike. Union leaders can recommend approval or rejection of any offer but it is the workers who make the decision, and any union leader has to be responsive to what his workers want before actually recommending or rejecting anything. They are after all the elected representatives of those workers. What the workers want and are prepared - or need - to fight for is what matters.

You are seeing an imaginary Daily Mailesque conspiracy by imagined union barons - to use the usual loaded terminology - when in fact they are simply reflecting the growing feelings amongst workers that enough is enough. And I speak with knowledge on the ground from within a unionised workplace, with many friends and relatives also in unionised workplaces, some already participating in or contemplating strikes. Pressure for action is growing from the bottom up which union leaders need to respond to.

In the DWP it is the demoralised workforce who are all openly talking of mass walkouts independently of union leadership. If this continues, their unions will have to act in response.

Average wage increases in 2021 was 5.4% with inflation about 2.6%. The thing you constantly overlook with your socialist specs on Steve is that wage increases are one of the key drivers behind inflation. Your constant clamouring for higher wages is    never going to help you, you will just be chasing shadows. I'm not sure how many ways I can say it, the only way to change your circumstance is to work smarter and / or work harder. 

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

[srb7677]

And you don't think all stores will do it together same as they price check to keep prices high.

I doubt it. They are too focussed upon trying to poach customers from each other and maintain or expand market share.

If lots of customers refuse to use self service machines there is always going to be someone like Aldi or Lidl - who don't for the most part use such machines - ready to take advantage by sweeping up those customers.

Because essentially customer service functions by responding to demand. The widespread reluctance by some to use such machines will need to diminish before stores could do away with most manned checkouts without losing customers.

You are a capitalist so ought to understand this. Where there is demand for something - including a desire to be served at a manned checkout - someone will supply that demand. The supermarkets know this which is why they cannot even collectively fly in the face of what their customers want. If they do, someone will take advantage of that and steal some of their customers, recognising the opportunity. The demand for manned checkouts needs to diminish substantially before more of them can be done away with. This is what some companies are trying to gradually achieve.

Plus the notion of every store in the land instantaneously switching emtirely to self service overnight is utterly unworkable. There isn't the trained manpower capable of converting every store in the land simultaneously overnight. It would take weeks if not months and require legally dubious cartel style cooperation even then. And the first ones to switch would lose customers to the ones that haven't yet switched, especially in large cities where there are often multiple supermarket options. You will start to notice - and companies will notice - that the stores that havent yet switched are gaining customers at the expense of those that have, which is highly likely to force a rethink.

This is why companies cannot afford to get ahead of the public on this.