Can somebody explain

[Good old]

Some thought here that you can't just blame Maggie, for our present reliance on services and industries privatised. Some truth as very little has been done since her time to reverse any of what she initially put in place.
The problem being that what she did was so all encompassing , the cost alone of any large scale reversal would have been astronomical ,before any consideration is taken of what might work ,what didn't , what might in time, what never would..massive changes in technology , IT alone has changed all things across the board.  And at all times the fact was and is , it's not really privatisation, or nationalisation . That is the problem ,it's what is of the most benefit to the nation in its entirety. Standard of, cost of.  But in general allowing the insistence on profit in the  providing of our vital services invariably leads to conflict between standard and cost for consumers, and privatisation doesn't happen without profit. As streetwalker points out one of our biggest energy suppliers is a nationalised company, it happens to be French. Surely food for thought, and not just because it is French.

[Nick]

And as I mentioned earlier forget the nuclear there was a plan and the plan was to shaft us,the other price we are paying is not just the failure to secure supplies but to allow a false competition where we ended paying on top because of a lack of control,were it still public owned we wouldn't be paying through the nose on standing charges or having to pay yet again another middleman to take on the likes of bulb.

Its not hard it is,was and always will be acon trick.

You shatter your self, if unions hadn't tried to hold the country to ransom Maggie wouldn't have gone for nuclear in the way she did. 

[Streetwalker]

The EU nations have never made war on us or on each other whilst members. Any wars in Europe post 1945 have always been fought outside the EU, mostly between or within nations wholly outside the EU - Yugoslavia in the 90s, Ukraine today.

Niether have NATO members which bar Finland ,Sweden (who are looking to join) and a couple of Islands in the Med more or less covers the countries who haven't had a pop at each other as well . But thats not what Toots said . The war in Ukraine being the driver  of the energy crisis of which we have little control .

And as I mentioned earlier forget the nuclear there was a plan and the plan was to shaft us,the other price we are paying is not just the failure to secure supplies but to allow a false competition where we ended paying on top because of a lack of control,were it still public owned we wouldn't be paying through the nose on standing charges or having to pay yet again another middleman to take on the likes of bulb.

Its not hard it is,was and always will be acon trick.

Its not right to say forget nuclear because with it we would have had more control as a nation of our energy supplies . Good to see Johnson throwing some money at it on his way out though you  can bet (there is form) that a future PM will cancel it. We are in agreement cromwell that privatisation has been disater for the UK ,where we dissagree is that you blame one woman where as I blame everyone  .

Well I did say ." Any semblance of a national policy disappeared ", that's not to say one was never mooted.
Visions are all very well, end product completely different.
With the whole industry constantly relying on fragmented , very often foreign ownership, and investment.
Governments in real terms lost control of future  implementation of planning,
Plans are one thing making those plans come to fruition are always conditioned by having control, control had been handed to private interests. And that remains the case we talked of nuclear ☢️ for 30/40 years yet struggle to have it unless it's another nations investment.

Governments did lose control ,they chose not confront the anti nuclear brigade and later the green lobby allowing energy suppliers to call the shots .One of our major energy suppliers of course is EDF so in a way we do have nationalised energy , just not our own nationalised energy . 
A strong government could take back control but I don't see one anywhere on the horizon 

[Good old]

As I mentioned earlier Thatcher had a vision of building a nuclear plant every year for ten years to get the UK off the dependency of Gas and coal . In the end Sizewell B was the only one that made it as the governments that succeeded her saw nuclear as too costly .
So yes at the point of privatisation there was a plan , it just wasnt carried out . Today we are paying the price for that ,not because of privatisation but the failure of successive governments to ensure the UK is power independent

Well I did say ." Any semblance of a national policy disappeared ", that's not to say one was never mooted.
Visions are all very well, end product completely different.
With the whole industry constantly relying on fragmented , very often foreign ownership, and investment. 
Governments in real terms lost control of future  implementation of planning, 
Plans are one thing making those plans come to fruition are always conditioned by having control, control had been handed to private interests. And that remains the case we talked of nuclear ☢️ for 30/40 years yet struggle to have it unless it's another nations investment.

[cromwell]

As I mentioned earlier Thatcher had a vision of building a nuclear plant every year for ten years to get the UK off the dependency of Gas and coal . In the end Sizewell B was the only one that made it as the governments that succeeded her saw nuclear as too costly .
So yes at the point of privatisation there was a plan , it just wasnt carried out . Today we are paying the price for that ,not because of privatisation but the failure of successive governments to ensure the UK is power independent

And as I mentioned earlier forget the nuclear there was a plan and the plan was to shaft us,the other price we are paying is not just the failure to secure supplies but to allow a false competition where we ended paying on top because of a lack of control,were it still public owned we wouldn't be paying through the nose on standing charges or having to pay yet again another middleman to take on the likes of bulb.

Its not hard it is,was and always will be acon trick.

[srb7677]

We made the mistake of trusting both the EU and other countries that they would forever be friends and allowed them to control our basic needs. WE thought there would be peace in our time.

The EU nations have never made war on us or on each other whilst members. Any wars in Europe post 1945 have always been fought outside the EU, mostly between or within nations wholly outside the EU - Yugoslavia in the 90s, Ukraine today.

[T00ts]

As I mentioned earlier Thatcher had a vision of building a nuclear plant every year for ten years to get the UK off the dependency of Gas and coal . In the end Sizewell B was the only one that made it as the governments that succeeded her saw nuclear as too costly .
So yes at the point of privatisation there was a plan , it just wasnt carried out . Today we are paying the price for that ,not because of privatisation but the failure of successive governments to ensure the UK is power independent

We made the mistake of trusting both the EU and other countries that they would forever be friends and allowed them to control our basic needs. WE thought there would be peace in our time.

[Streetwalker]

It would seem that along with the privatisation of the energy industry in general, by Maggie, any semblance of a joined up national policy for future production ,future energy needs was also lost. Ever since it's been this game of shall we shan,t we. And always thinking primarily of relying on all things private , never coordinating the investment  beyond the solving of one problem at a time, and not even doing that all to often.

As I mentioned earlier Thatcher had a vision of building a nuclear plant every year for ten years to get the UK off the dependency of Gas and coal . In the end Sizewell B was the only one that made it as the governments that succeeded her saw nuclear as too costly . 
So yes at the point of privatisation there was a plan , it just wasnt carried out . Today we are paying the price for that ,not because of privatisation but the failure of successive governments to ensure the UK is power independent 

[cromwell]

How about of logic in this.
When was the expensive and pointless middle management structure inserted into the NHS. I haven't looked into this so I'm not asking a leading question.

Off hand I don't know,but the salient point in this thread is the abysmal failure that is privatisation of the utilities is it not?

[Good old]

You and a few others missing the point,how is the imposition of middle men and them using consumers money as theirs going down with customers money and us footing the bill again as opposed to the regional boards and quarterly bills,forget the nuclear bit privatisation of the the utilities was and is a disaster and yes I do blame her and Keith Joseph.

Never trust a Tory you said.

It would seem that along with the privatisation of the energy industry in general, by Maggie, any semblance of a joined up national policy for future production ,future energy needs was also lost. Ever since it's been this game of shall we shan,t we. And always thinking primarily of relying on all things private , never coordinating the investment   beyond the solving of one problem at a time, and not even doing that all to often.

[Nick]

You and a few others missing the point,how is the imposition of middle men and them using consumers money as theirs going down with customers money and us footing the bill again as opposed to the regional boards and quarterly bills,forget the nuclear bit privatisation of the the utilities was and is a disaster and yes I do blame her and Keith Joseph.

Never trust a Tory you said.

How about of logic in this. 
When was the expensive and pointless middle management structure inserted into the NHS. I haven't looked into this so I'm not asking a leading question. 

[Nick]

Have you ever considered adding a laughter button? Sometimes this place could do with it.

There is a laughter button, you tell me how you separate the 2 and I'll add it again. 
BTW, we're talking can't do from won't do. 

[Good old]

The water was definitely down to Major, as was the Railways. But if I recall correctly, gas and electricity were Thatcher's doing.

And she was most culpable in inflicting the whole ideology of privatisation upon us. Major just followed in her stead. But in fairness to her, it did have some measure of public support at the time. But it is not at all popular now, now that we have all seen how it has turned out.


The railways, gas, electricity and the rest of the state owned utilities were never that popular or efficient when they were nationalised. Attlee's government nationalised the mines, railways and a lot else because they were paying their dues to the unions, not because they were in any way better run.

I have just had a conversation with my daughter, who has explained that before Thatcherism there was no power shortages, housing was cheap and everybody sang and laughed all day long. I tried to point out that she was born in a squat, on a couple of occasions we cocked on the fire in the living room because we could not afford the gas and the biggest laugh we had was my socialist friends explaining that it was all someone else's fault and that all our problems that everything would come right if we followed the teachings of a hemorrhoid ridden Kraut whose main claim to fame was writing books on economics and then getting evicted for non payment of his rent.

My daughter smiled sweetly and said that it was nothing like that because she had just read an article in the Guardian that said that before Thatcherism there was no power shortages, housing was cheap and everybody sang and laughed all day long...........

In a very general sense , this touches on our basic problem. Without doubt Thatcher set us on the way to where we are, those that have followed could never easily have reversed the majority of what she set up ,in particular Blair's crowd, the cost alone made that a fact , but beyond that it wasn't clear yet what the long term effects might be.
Your daughter is wrong we did have problems with power before Thatcher, and no life wasn't a bowl of cherries , but we had been running on a post war economy ,which was better than the pre war one ,but not perfect. The Attlee, nationalisations, we're for stability of the utilities and road and rail, and they achieved that at affordable cost to the public. The mines were two fold, employment and the energy supply. Elephant in the room as ever unions.
Not everything about that was right or wrong. Thatcher completely changed the basics of the economy, mainly through the banks taking many restrictions off them as to how they did business and who with. I couldn't get a private pension until I was  thirty years old. And when I did it was a well known  City firm that supplied it. Credit was the name of the game. My first credit card was forced into my hand by a bank manager still in a job. After negotiating a cheaper mortgage. Always restricted before Maggie, she freed up the consumer market , to become a culture , supported by credit, and in no time she sold off not just the nationalised industries , but every other underfunded failing enterprise she could lay her hands on. Not all right ,not all wrong. But at least now we can see what actually is working and what never will. 
There lies the crux, why does everything have to be all one or the other?  Maybe the reason why is as simple as to say, our political system and those that dominate it are not strictly acting for the good of all in the nation, and only in some cases representing self interest.To some degree this makes  your friend right it is someone else's fault.
And yes the Guardian , what would they know. But then what would the Mail, the Telegraph, the Times. Rupert , and the rest of the filthy rich media moguls know?
This present energy crisis cries out for government to take some form of control at source , just keep throwing billions at it hoping to plug pressure points is not the way to a more stable future for our energy needs.
Stop seeing it as a profit maker, and stop thinking that to so is pure socialism ideologically unacceptable.

[Borchester]

The water was definitely down to Major, as was the Railways. But if I recall correctly, gas and electricity were Thatcher's doing.

And she was most culpable in inflicting the whole ideology of privatisation upon us. Major just followed in her stead. But in fairness to her, it did have some measure of public support at the time. But it is not at all popular now, now that we have all seen how it has turned out.


The railways, gas, electricity and the rest of the state owned utilities were never that popular or efficient when they were nationalised. Attlee's government nationalised the mines, railways and a lot else because they were paying their dues to the unions, not because they were in any way better run.

I have just had a conversation with my daughter, who has explained that before Thatcherism there was no power shortages, housing was cheap and everybody sang and laughed all day long. I tried to point out that she was born in a squat, on a couple of occasions we cocked on the fire in the living room because we could not afford the gas and the biggest laugh we had was my socialist friends explaining that it was all someone else's fault and that all our problems that everything would come right if we followed the teachings of a hemorrhoid ridden Kraut whose main claim to fame was writing books on economics and then getting evicted for non payment of his rent.

My daughter smiled sweetly and said that it was nothing like that because she had just read an article in the Guardian that said that before Thatcherism there was no power shortages, housing was cheap and everybody sang and laughed all day long...........

[srb7677]

it wasnt all Maggies fault . It was the  Major government after all who sold the water and the electric . 

The water was definitely down to Major, as was the Railways. But if I recall correctly, gas and electricity were Thatcher's doing.

And she was most culpable in inflicting the whole ideology of privatisation upon us. Major just followed in her stead. But in fairness to her, it did have some measure of public support at the time. But it is not at all popular now, now that we have all seen how it has turned out.