Free Will

[Nalaar]

Okay, so none of the 3 questions I put to you were responded to in any clear sense. Nonetheless I will continue with some of what you have said.

While my example is a rather splendid model for the mechanism of memory recall, it is primarily a clinical test to determine if you have some sort of impairment preventing your mind from working as it should.

If there is an impairment, would you consider that impairment voluntary? Of choice? Or something over which the subject has no control?

Of course, if you are putting the case that an external puppeteer god is driving your every thought, tinfoil and darkness are hardly going to stop them are they.

I am not, as I have mentioned before I do not believe in any gods.

To determine the ability of the will to block out external unwanted shyte, I was rather pleased to note a few years ago that I was able to take myself to a state of deep meditation as measured by galvanic response meter while random jet engine tests were going on 100 yards to my right and some jerks were jackhammering the road nest to the runway 200 yards to my left, both causing random sound levels in excess of 85db...

By what practice do you meditate?

So yes, to some extent, I say you can control what you are thinking. You can CERTAINLY apply conscious control to the degree to which you respond to external stimuli, ask ANY practicioner of hypnotherapy as a means to overcome fear of dentists for example.

My understanding of hypnotherapy is very basic, but surely the purpose for someone seeking a hypnotherapist is because they themselves can not apply conscious control over their thoughts?

[Baron von Lotsov]

Got second sight as well as free will, eh, Baron. You really have got it all

Yep.

Nothing to do with the OP. We do or we don't

Yes well you are thinking on a more philosophical level of whether we have it at all, and plus what the bible says. My view flipped to a look at more practical matters taken we would normally have it. No need to get your knickers in a twist, as there is more than one way of looking at this. A brainwashed idiot will go with the flow. A smart free thinker who understand when he is under psychological attack will generally gain advantage by making a more informed and unbiased choice. I was trained to be a scientist, and you can not do science unless you rid your mind of bias. It's a skill one acquires if one wants to practice science. it's a shame you don't appreciate the benefits.

It's true. I'm not a brain surgeon. But then, I'm not a nurse either. Where did you get that silly idea?

I might be confusing you with someone else. Apologies for that. Did you say you worked for the NHS? This was my understanding.

Strange way of wording it, but I tend to agree.

Well on purpose as well since it is a test of the logical consistency of the bible.

No. We all have free will. Righteous and unrighteous alike.

Well it's like the classic case of you drink then you don't know what you are doing and then you get in your car and kill someone. The crime can only be so if you intended to kill the person, which you did not at the time because you were too drunk. However the law argues that you intended to drink and you knew what the hazards are when you drink, hence you are guilty.



Therefore, if you approach evil you know you are. You have been warned about it via the bible, and you'll get some sense that it is evil even so. That's the point of free will. This pagan cult stuff that goes on in my area turns these people into the kind who are clearly not in control. I think you would have to experience and advanced case of it to appreciate what I am saying. I've seen it first hand. They don't have any free will at all. It was sucha  weird experience on one occasion it spooked me right out. Indeed it brought home to me the reason the bible warns so strongly agaisnt gettign involved in this kind of stuff. This is all from observation. I'm telling you the truth.

[Barry]

I knew that was coming before I even read it.

Got second sight as well as free will, eh, Baron. You really have got it all

Not so. Improving your free will is where you look at it as follows. You are to make a decision. If you had total free will then you would always be 100% of that choice. However, you yourself could be 60% in favour of a yes choice. Then compare to the same choice, but now with your mind affected by advertising. The 60% might drop to 40% and that would be a combination of the 60% you would have from your own mind, and then counteracted by say negative advertising, pushing it to no buy rather than buy.

Nothing to do with the OP. We do or we don't

You clearly lack knowledge of how our brains actually work. They are analogue computers, and it works on the frequency of neuron firing. I thought you were a nurse.

It's true. I'm not a brain surgeon. But then, I'm not a nurse either. Where did you get that silly idea?

According to the scriptures we must have free choice because there would not be any point in the scriptures if it were like one big program that ran its course, as per the outcome is already determined before it runs.

Strange way of wording it, but I tend to agree.

Actually my take on it is that the righteous have free choice, but if someone gets so consumed by evil then they lose that. For example the compulsive gambler loses free choice, the greedy can't resist grabbing something if it is on offer, regardless of their need. Also what i have observed with those who worship false pagan idols is that they lose it more completely than anyone else. In fact so much so it is very scary to witness someone in such a state. They have been got at and there isn't anything you can do to change it.

No. We all have free will. Righteous and unrighteous alike.

[T00ts]

No JoG it is not a done deal until the very last minute - Judgement. We all have the option to repent and turn to Christ. We all have the free will to make the decision to work for our Eternal life rather than for the transient existence here on earth. We all have the the opportunity to turn to God in search for the truth. It is written and I have quoted it before.



Matthew 7:8

For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.



You only have to ask if it is true with real honesty and be prepared to hear the answer. It is open to everyone and the promises are there for those with ears to hear. I'm off to Church.

[johnofgwent]

My take on this is that there are pointers in scripture (sorry it's God again) which suggest that there is predetermination as to who will be saved and who won't.

Well that wraps it up then, no amount of piousing your arse off is going to get some of us into heaven and no amount of murder is going to get some of us into hell.



And the verse of all things bright and beautiful we DONT sing any more was right all along



"The rich man in his castle. the poor man at his gate, God **MADE** them High and Lowly, and ORDERED their estate"



Sod this i'm off to do what we vikings know best. Starting with broiling a missionary, because after all, if i'm allowed to broil them, god has ordered it be so ...





That's the sort of thinking that particular way to read the wierdest book in what is your, and used to be my, holy writ leads to isn't it. Mad bastards doing 90 on single track mountain roads because their god has predetermined whether it is their time to go, or not and there is nothing they can do to change that...

[Baron von Lotsov]

I've enjoyed this thread, so far, so thanks to Nalaar for starting it.

Well, except the above.

I knew that was coming before I even read it.

The point we are exploring is whether or not we have free will and BvL is saying we can improve our free will. So BvL has obviously decided that we have free will. Not only that, but that we can "improve" it.

I call out BS here.



The matter of free will is binary, we either have it or we do not. If we do not have it, it can only be improved by having it.

If we already have it , it cannot be improved.

Not so. Improving your free will is where you look at it as follows. You are to make a decision. If you had total free will then you would always be 100% of that choice. However, you yourself could be 60% in favour of a yes choice. Then compare to the same choice, but now with your mind affected by advertising. The 60% might drop to 40% and that would be a combination of the 60% you would have from your own mind, and then counteracted by say negative advertising, pushing it to no buy rather than buy.



You clearly lack knowledge of how our brains actually work. They are analogue computers, and it works on the frequency of neuron firing. I thought you were a nurse.

My take on this is that there are pointers in scripture (sorry it's God again) which suggest that there is predetermination as to who will be saved and who won't. That suggests that we do not have a choice, but we surely do. That choice is made in our minds as to what we decide to believe and whom we trust.

If we were predetermined to make that choice, that does not actually make our choice any less valid.



It's a fascinating subject.

According to the scriptures we must have free choice because there would not be any point in the scriptures if it were like one big program that ran its course, as per the outcome is already determined before it runs.



Actually my take on it is that the righteous have free choice, but if someone gets so consumed by evil then they lose that. For example the compulsive gambler loses free choice, the greedy can't resist grabbing something if it is on offer, regardless of their need. Also what i have observed with those who worship false pagan idols is that they lose it more completely than anyone else. In fact so much so it is very scary to witness someone in such a state. They have been got at and there isn't anything you can do to change it.

[T00ts]

Have a look at Revelation 13:8, T00ts

It's the "from the foundation of the world", bit.

Ok I read the whole chapter again to get it in context. I fear this  may be where our takes on the Gospel diverge again. Satan is the beast and those who worship and follow him are not recorded in the Book of Life. These will depart with the Beast for eternity.  This was  something that was predetermined although there is the story of how Satan was cast out and those who followed before Adam etc.

We all have received the Free will to follow Jesus or Satan and it was that that was predetermined.  That's a very shortened answer but is my understanding.

[Barry]

Have a look at Revelation 13:8, T00ts

It's the "from the foundation of the world", bit.

[T00ts]

I've enjoyed this thread, so far, so thanks to Nalaar for starting it.

Well, except the above. The point we are exploring is whether or not we have free will and BvL is saying we can improve our free will. So BvL has obviously decided that we have free will. Not only that, but that we can "improve" it.

I call out BS here.



The matter of free will is binary, we either have it or we do not. If we do not have it, it can only be improved by having it.

If we already have it , it cannot be improved.



My take on this is that there are pointers in scripture (sorry it's God again) which suggest that there is predetermination as to who will be saved and who won't. That suggests that we do not have a choice, but we surely do. That choice is made in our minds as to what we decide to believe and whom we trust.

If we were predetermined to make that choice, that does not actually make our choice any less valid.



It's a fascinating subject.

I'm intrigued. Where do you find predetermination? There is a difference between that and pre-ordination. Jesus has promised all will be saved through faith in Him and following the Commandments. There is a bit more to it it's true, but that's the basics.

[Barry]

You can improve your free will.

I've enjoyed this thread, so far, so thanks to Nalaar for starting it.

Well, except the above. The point we are exploring is whether or not we have free will and BvL is saying we can improve our free will. So BvL has obviously decided that we have free will. Not only that, but that we can "improve" it.

I call out BS here.



The matter of free will is binary, we either have it or we do not. If we do not have it, it can only be improved by having it.

If we already have it , it cannot be improved.



My take on this is that there are pointers in scripture (sorry it's God again) which suggest that there is predetermination as to who will be saved and who won't. That suggests that we do not have a choice, but we surely do. That choice is made in our minds as to what we decide to believe and whom we trust.

If we were predetermined to make that choice, that does not actually make our choice any less valid.



It's a fascinating subject.

[Baron von Lotsov]

You can improve your free will.



Our free will is stolen from us by brainwashers, or otherwise known as marketers, PR and so on. They deliberately exploit traits of the human mind. If you know what they do, how they do it and how what they do works then you can start to figure out some lines of defence. These can be things like logically rum through a  decision you are about to make. If you "feel" something then ask yourself why you feel it. Try and quantify it in your mind. For example, lets say you feel uneasy to buy from an unapproved supplier. What is the logical basis for it. How many times have you done it before, how many of these were negative in some way. Count them up. Then you can see if your feelings actually track reality. Of course you might have just been brainwashed by a scary ad informing your subconscious that you will be eaten by monsters if you buy from an unapproved source. Then if there is a difference between logic and feelings trace the cause, then teach your mind to recognise the cause itself as untrustworthy. Finally decide how to remove the possibility of the cause adversely affecting your mind again. You might like to download ad blocker.

[johnofgwent]

Okay so given this is the example presented.



1) Was the cause of the memory's coming to thought because the subject wanted to think about them, or because the operator asked the subject to think of them?



2) After being asked to think of memories, can the subjects refuse to think of memories?



3) Is the subject in control of what memories they think of? Or are they witnesses to whatever memories happen to come to mind when they are asked to think of them?

While my example is a rather splendid model for the mechanism of memory recall, it is primarily a clinical test to determine if you have some sort of impairment preventing your mind from working as it should.



As a scientist, I was taught that science advances by interaction between theory and experiment. Which means to settle the question of whether thought is something created internally or entirely an external matter you would have to place a subject in a place where external input is profoundly f*cked with and see what happens. I've been in "quiet rooms" but I've never been in a sensory deprivation tank. I'd love to try one. Of course, if you are putting the case that an external puppeteer god is driving your every thought, tinfoil and darkness are hardly going to stop them are they.  



To determine the ability of the will to block out external unwanted shyte, I was rather pleased to note a few years ago that I was able to take myself to a state of deep meditation as measured by galvanic response meter while random jet engine tests were going on 100 yards to my right and some jerks were jackhammering the road nest to the runway 200 yards to my left, both causing random sound levels in excess of 85db...



So yes, to some extent, I say you can control what you are thinking. You can CERTAINLY apply conscious control to the degree to which you respond to external stimuli, ask ANY practicioner of hypnotherapy as a means to overcome fear of dentists for example.

[Nalaar]

I refer to the autonomic nervous system driven largely by the primitive hindbrain, but in the higher areas you cause it by thinking. By which i mean a medical scan can pick up electrical activity when the operator asks you to remember something.

Okay so given this is the example presented.



1) Was the cause of the memory's coming to thought because the subject wanted to think about them, or because the operator asked the subject to think of them?



2) After being asked to think of memories, can the subjects refuse to think of memories?



3) Is the subject in control of what memories they think of? Or are they witnesses to whatever memories happen to come to mind when they are asked to think of them?

[T00ts]

Yes Toots' I thought that as well when I saw him at work as i scanned the macromolecules of drosphila melanogaster with an electron microscope while wearing a white coat in the lab during the days i still believed in him. See, the thing is, belief in a supreme being does not actually require slavish adherence to the fantasisings of a bunch of hardly more than neolithic men that he got it all done in six days.



Not least because no man could possibly multi task that, and if (hu)mankind is really created in his image, then god is not only a woman, but black as well. Oh the number of times that used to piss off the fundamentalists when I worked that into my sermon from the pulpit. In all the churches in south wales i preached at except one.  Hannah Street URC in the heart of Tiger Bay. The entire congregation stood up yelled hallelujia and applauded. But then again, they were 85% composed of descendants of the Windrush. So I was just ackowledging what they already knew. God created their momma in HER image ....



I'll get my coat ....

I won't give my explanation (except that one day in God's time is nothing that we understand) but eternity means no beginning and no end. So if there is a male God perhaps we should wonder if there might also be a female/mother God too. There is so much that we cannot begin to understand as yet.

[johnofgwent]

God is really clever to have created that don't you think?   Thanks for the explanation. :hattip

Yes Toots' I thought that as well when I saw him at work as i scanned the macromolecules of drosphila melanogaster with an electron microscope while wearing a white coat in the lab during the days i still believed in him. See, the thing is, belief in a supreme being does not actually require slavish adherence to the fantasisings of a bunch of hardly more than neolithic men that he got it all done in six days.



Not least because no man could possibly multi task that, and if (hu)mankind is really created in his image, then god is not only a woman, but black as well. Oh the number of times that used to piss off the fundamentalists when I worked that into my sermon from the pulpit. In all the churches in south wales i preached at except one.  Hannah Street URC in the heart of Tiger Bay. The entire congregation stood up yelled hallelujia and applauded. But then again, they were 85% composed of descendants of the Windrush. So I was just ackowledging what they already knew. God created their momma in HER image ....



I'll get my coat ....