Free Will

[T00ts]

I do not believe in any gods.

As I thought so there is no basis for a discussion. We come at the question not just from two opposing sides but from completely different understandings. Unless of course you are prepared to question your beliefs.  

[Nalaar]

Oh dear once again you are being too complicated.

I have tried to keep the ideas as simple as possible. You seemed unconcerned about the Juice example, and chose to interject a god into the discussion, which is undoubtedly a complicating factor, but I then tried to include it in as simple a manor as possible.


 

On the face of your example then, the Christian and logicical decision would possibly be that this person was no longer in charge of his actions and his earthly treatment should be compatible.

So to clarify, you think that because the biochemical processes in the brain, which the murderer had no control over, it should be argued considered that this person has "no longer in charge of their actions" or in other words, had no Free Will?

What you are ignoring is the Spiritual. Here I think we are probably totally at odds.

Please explain how the murderer had Spiritual Free Will, if indeed you believe he did so.

I guess you have little or no belief in God

I do not believe in any gods.

[T00ts]

I think the breakfast juice scenario is a very basic example, by design. If we're struggling to find Free Will there, then the concept of Free Will is in real trouble. If you can't find it there, then where is it hiding?



If you don't like the breakfast example I can provide others that I think convincingly display a lack of Free Will.







This is a much more complex example, but let's take an extreme example to make the point of this - I think it's fairly well accepted that committing murder is against the gospel - If a devoted Christian were to be in a car crash and suffer brain trauma, and the resulting trauma gave rise to violent outbursts, which then resulted in a murder, do you blame the murderer for choosing to murder, or do you consider them a victim of the most miserable luck?

Oh dear once again you are being too complicated. On the face of your example then, the Christian and logicical decision would possibly be that this person was no longer in charge of his actions and his earthly treatment should be compatible. What you are ignoring is the Spiritual. Here I think we are probably totally at odds.

I guess you have little or no belief in God, forgive me if I am wrong in that, but for me we have 2 choices, live according to the Gospel or suffer the carefully laid out consequences of not so doing. It is really very very simple. The only difficulty for mankind is the recognition of a superior being when we are so very convinced that we are the greatest!  

[Sampanviking]

I am definitely with Lucifer on this one



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSSI6j7ZC6Q">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSSI6j7ZC6Q

[Nalaar]

Having this or that for breakfast is a different story.

I think the breakfast juice scenario is a very basic example, by design. If we're struggling to find Free Will there, then the concept of Free Will is in real trouble. If you can't find it there, then where is it hiding?



If you don't like the breakfast example I can provide others that I think convincingly display a lack of Free Will.

If we have a knowledge of the Gospel and an understanding of what God's expectations of us are, then our free will to obey or not becomes extremely important. God's plan is very simple and clearly laid out in the Scriptures. We have the choice to accept the written and promised consequences of our actions in this earthly life or not. That is the true meaning of free will in the context of the Gospel. Thought of course, can be explained in any way you like, but in terms of the Gospel it is irrelevant.

 

This is a much more complex example, but let's take an extreme example to make the point of this - I think it's fairly well accepted that committing murder is against the gospel - If a devoted Christian were to be in a car crash and suffer brain trauma, and the resulting trauma gave rise to violent outbursts, which then resulted in a murder, do you blame the murderer for choosing to murder, or do you consider them a victim of the most miserable luck?

[T00ts]

In true scientific gobbledegook you are attempting to make something simple into a complex theory. You might add knowledge into the equation. At the same time you are trying to compare apples with oranges. If we have a knowledge of the Gospel and an understanding of what God's expectations of us are, then our free will to obey or not becomes extremely important. God's plan is very simple and clearly laid out in the Scriptures. We have the choice to accept the written and promised consequences of our actions in this earthly life or not. That is the true meaning of free will in the context of the Gospel. Thought of course, can be explained in any way you like, but in terms of the Gospel it is irrelevant.

Having this or that for breakfast is a different story.  

[Nalaar]

Free will is not the thoughts etc you have whether they are the result of biochemistry or otherwise. Your free will is what you decide to do with those thoughts.

As I say there are two parts -



You are not free to act upon that which you do not think, and you are not free to chose what you think. You may dismiss this but I think it is important.



However your post is really concerned with they second part that I raised in my post - The question is in what sense are you free to decide. The problem is that no matter what choice you make you can go back and retroactively create a narrative for why you did something.



Consider the following. You are offered a glass of juice with breakfast, and asked to pick, Apple juice or Orange juice?

You pick apple juice, and when asked why you say something like 'I had apple juice with breakfast yesterday and it was delicious so I want it again' because that's how you feel. You genuinely feel that is the case, and it seems like a verification of Free Will. However, why didn't you think 'I had apple juice yesterday, so I will have orange juice today'? That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to think, and if you had taken the orange juice, and that had been your feeling, and therefore answer, it would of seems like a verification of Free Will.



This simple example shows 2 things - Any choice seems to verify Free Will, and without scrutiny an assumption is made.

You must scrutinise what it is like to make a choice, and why not the inverse of the final choice.

[T00ts]

I'll just outline the very basics and then can address the questions that come from that.



We do not have Free Will. Two parts.



The first basic premise is this - You are not in control of your thoughts. You only become aware of what you are thinking after it has occurred to you.



I think most people find this the easier aspect to agree with.



Secondly - Every thought/reaction etc you have is purely a matter of biochemistry in your brain which you have no control over (some people also believe in spirits/souls etc, which again we have no control over). You are not able to elaborate why you believe in the ideas you believe in, and if something convinces you to change your mind, you had no say in that either.



I find this aspect allot more wordy to explain and allot less intuitive, but when you view everything through the lens of biochemistry it is self evident.

Free will is not the thoughts etc you have whether they are the result of biochemistry or otherwise. Your free will is what you decide to do with those thoughts.

[Nalaar]

I'll just outline the very basics and then can address the questions that come from that.



We do not have Free Will. Two parts.



The first basic premise is this - You are not in control of your thoughts. You only become aware of what you are thinking after it has occurred to you.



I think most people find this the easier aspect to agree with.



Secondly - Every thought/reaction etc you have is purely a matter of biochemistry in your brain which you have no control over (some people also believe in spirits/souls etc, which again we have no control over). You are not able to elaborate why you believe in the ideas you believe in, and if something convinces you to change your mind, you had no say in that either.



I find this aspect allot more wordy to explain and allot less intuitive, but when you view everything through the lens of biochemistry it is self evident.