Stop panicking

[Sheepy]

On the bright side, I hear Boyceys crew are storming the Conservative conference.

[johnofgwent]

When you were young ,it must have been difficult paying interest rates on mortages of 15 %. Some context though of the time is required. Back then , the average house price was 5 times the average salary.Now.....it`s 11 times the average salary. The only sobbing i currently see is from conservatives who know they have a dud in place as prime minister. Keir is Prime minister in waiting and the tories are toast. We all know it.

No sean, it was not QUITE like that

I bought my first house in 1983. I had just completed my post graduate research and secured a position as a software engineer in a defence company making various devices for maggie to kill people more efficiently with, and for that i was paid the princely sum of £8,500. My wife, a lowly Clerical Officer, brought home £3,500 which had been our main income stream in the early days of our marriage but that was sufficient for our expenses because at that time RENT in private accommodation such as ours was limited by rent tribunals, and the vast majority of blue collar workers paid rent for their council houses, also limited by tribunals. As a result of the pretty plentiful supply of council housing, the demand for housing outside london which was bloody stupid by any measure, was not remotely what it is now, and most faces on our streets were still white.

"Three bed" (actually 2 with a tiny boxroom) terraced houses in cwmbran were being built brand new by Barratt for £21,500. Studio One Beds were going for £19,500. In Newport a house similar to the Barratt ones was £22,500. I bought a timber framed wimpey home for £24850

For the junior programmers in my employer's place just starting on £5,850 the Barratt Homes were less than four times their single salary and the development corporation built hundreds of key worker homes available at tribunal-set rents
  
Thatcher's actions to destroy the council housing and remove rent tribunals started the stupidity, and her bloody chancellor and his effing stupid decision to remove MIRAS in six months caused house prices to scream upwards by over 50% in a six month period and then come crashing back down, causing negative equity

The hike from 8% to 15% actually only increased my mortgage on the £24,850 home I had a 100% mortgage on at the time from £86 to £130 as MIRAS took a huge bite out of the increase, i donlt really understand how. Fortunately for me, my work on making more efficient ways for maggie's cannon fodder to kill people saw my salary of £8,500 rise to £12,500 and then to £15,000. Policemen saw a similar rise in salary

This is why of the 22 houses on Ramsey Walk Close, Newport, only number 19 owned by a policeman and his dental hygienist wife, and number 16 owned by me and Moira now a Higher Clerical Officer were still in our ownership, the other 20 having been reposessed as people on jobs NOT with those meteoric pay rises found themselves in the gutter

[Borchester]

One action we (the PP family) took a couple of years ago was to invest in property in Europe. The rental income in GDP has fluctuated along with currency movements but, overall, it's increased. So if that's an indication of how to get a worthwhile return on investment, I wonder why any legitimate trade or business would invest their money in the UK. And that's what the Truss administration is basing the UK's future on...

If you are happy with it the fair enough.

The Borchester clan have always been reluctant to, invest anywhere we don't understand the language or customs, which is why we got rid of the Scottish properties.

A French friend once explained that the reason he invested in the UK was that the dodgy bastards in the UK were considerably less dodgy than the ones back home. A small sample and he did come from Marseille, but there you are.

Had the estate agent around at the weekend. He wandered around the rural slum and sighed and said that such places were a drag on the market and that he would have trouble giving it away.

Then he suggested a price £50,000 above what we were thinking of...

Property prices go up and down like a working girl's nether garments on pay day. There is no rhyme or reason behind them and all the brilliant analysis come after the event

[Good old]

You just don't want to understand it cause it makes hard reading.
When in history prior to the rise of giving credit to everyone could someone on minimum wage leave a shop with the exact same top of the range iPhone as someone on £250K a year? The whole economic structure is skewed by this phenomenon.

And who changed the whole economic direction to what you describe.? Thatcher, the arch Tory.
There would be no mass production as we understand it if it was not for the situation you describe . Without the easy access allowed by easy credit everything ceases up.
It's not all bad. By any means, in fact it's the basis of our easy life styles,  but it relies on balance and that can only be maintained by good competent governance. Something that has gone missing. What you can't blame is the consumer , any more than it's fair to blame someone for being made redundant . no consumer for whatever reason no business.

[Sheepy]

I'm really grateful for this post cromwell. It is a clear discussion rather than a diatribe against all things Conservative and that is so refreshing as well as thought provoking. We are not so far apart I feel. My concerns are pretty much the same as yours. I want a better Country, I want all those unable to care for themselves to be cared for by the rest of us with dignity and kindness. I want those who can enabled to create wealth that we can all benefit from but sadly as you so rightly point out there will always be greed and cheats. At least until the 2nd Coming and thereafter will follow the judgement of those who care more for wealth for themselves than what it can do for others.

As a nation we have been let down in so many ways over decades. There will always be workers who will work for less than those here and incentives given by other countries to encourage industries away to ever cheaper labour. After all each Nation wants the investment. The EU have proved masters of this as they absorbed poorer countries into the group with enticements to move productions away to poorer areas.  Equally I feel that we have to be prepared to modernise, with actions that seem geared as much to bring down elected Government as to lift pay being counter productive to us all.
The NHS could be so much better but the assumption of ever increasing annual funding makes those in charge lazy and complacent to the point that they achieve less and less. The budget is not clueless. It is a recognised economic tactic although badly presented. What was clear is that more of the Sunak same was not going to achieve much at all.
We are a nation caught in a perfect storm, Brexit, Covid, PM changes, a Parliament that has forgotten it's role and an electorate desperate for something, anything, to appear normal again. We have to be very careful in all the angst and chaos that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It needs sage heads from us all not just jibes from each side.
The last thing we need is to continue uncompetitive, to not encourage the entrepreneurs and clever people to work here because we don't like them earning too much. To drive those here abroad because they can avoid taxes by living elsewhere. There is always a danger in letting the pendulum swing too far when what we need is balance. It will be a brave superhuman that comes up with all the answers but at least Truss is prepared to try something radical and it could work but ditching it before it has chance is a bit mindless.

So they don't control the economy then, it is just another Westminster illusion. At least it saves me listening to Boycey the economic genius.

[Sean]

The biggest difference was that no-one would lend exorbitant money. People couldn't cheat their incomes. Vendors would up the prices and valuers regularly devalued them and would only lend the smaller amount. Sellers were kept in line. Lots of houses were deemed unmortgage-able. If it didn't have a front garden, no bathroom. Or was simply overpriced. People now will do anything to have the dream.

There's too much passing the blame buck and not enough realism in what each of us can honestly manage.

Thank you for your post , but i see others have replied in kind regarding lack of supply pushing up price. I see Truss and Kwarteng have climbed down on the 45p rate. This wont calm the markets , as it still leaves circa £50 Billion hole in the tory finances. The threats of rebellion from tory mp`s like Gove and Schapps were enough to make the hapless Truss u turn . Sleight of hand and mere window dressing though.

[papasmurf]

And the Kwasi has take the blame and the whole idea has been dropped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-63114183

I await the horrors Chloe Smith the new really nasty DWP minister is going to come out with.

[cromwell]

And the Kwasi has take the blame and the whole idea has been dropped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-63114183

[papasmurf]

It is a clear discussion rather than a diatribe against all things Conservative and that is so refreshing as well as thought provoking.

Toots I am puzzled as to how you and other Tories appear to be totally insulated from the damage the Tories have done to Britain since May 2010. The Tories now showing their true colours under Truss and present a real and present danger to vulnerable and poor people in Britain. They also now are in the process of damaging their own core voters.

[T00ts]

I doubt that the Chinese stole that at all as they are the great innovators, yes we were once but it's really no use on blaming it all on the workers or unions.

Where do you see people like Fred the shred in all this,those who attempted to sell LV off not for the greater good but to line their pockets.

Then there's P&O ferries where the chief executive openly admitted he broke the law  and said he'd do it all over again.....action taken...... none.

In my working life I've seen some really excellent people at the helm,sadly though I've seen far too many who are interested in their status quo when they were at best mediocre but took far too much out and put very little in.

IMO it was madness to put all our eggs in one financial services basket where we keep getting burnt,on the old old forum I said we should encourage and build manufacturing sectors,I was laughed at for being behind the times,our future was London and finance,you'll get no innovation or invention there,well not of the type you envision.

What they do best is invent ways to lie,steal and cheat to amass fortunes and sod the country,there is a country and people outside of London which has been too long neglected.

Any failings of the NHS are not down to those at the coal face it's because they are asked to do too much and been hampered by political ideology through so many different administrations where the nhs should've been governed cross party instead of the trusts that few actually put any trust in at all and the pfi scandal to name but two.

I really do despair that the most vulnerable in our society are so often blamed for their own predicament or exploited and seen as an income stream rather than as people and here Imight add I've seen labour run authorities equally or more culpable of the above.
Regarding some of the above have been farmed out to the private sector which is why I say they are seen as an income stream rather than people.

Who in their right minds think it ok to house kids in care on caravan sites,in narrow boats or in one case a young individual who threatened suicide by jumping put in a flat high up above retail premises.
Then there's the mentally illor with learning disabilities held in places like that featured recently on  the beeb in my home city,the managers absent and the staff paid less than a shop worker left to their own devices and there's wonder why it all went wrong.

Its a mark of a country on how well they treat the most vulnerable and the Truss administration is threatening cuts in both services and benefits.

Regarding panic well there are many in the Tory party and not just at low level who are greatly perturbed about what's been done.

I don't decry Truss because she's a woman or Kwasi for being black,no it's because IMO they are inept,clueless and pushing policy on political doctrine and stubbornness by refusing to see they are mistaken........but it's the ordinary people and the vulnerable who will pay the greater price.

I'm really grateful for this post cromwell. It is a clear discussion rather than a diatribe against all things Conservative and that is so refreshing as well as thought provoking. We are not so far apart I feel. My concerns are pretty much the same as yours. I want a better Country, I want all those unable to care for themselves to be cared for by the rest of us with dignity and kindness. I want those who can enabled to create wealth that we can all benefit from but sadly as you so rightly point out there will always be greed and cheats. At least until the 2nd Coming and thereafter will follow the judgement of those who care more for wealth for themselves than what it can do for others.

As a nation we have been let down in so many ways over decades. There will always be workers who will work for less than those here and incentives given by other countries to encourage industries away to ever cheaper labour. After all each Nation wants the investment. The EU have proved masters of this as they absorbed poorer countries into the group with enticements to move productions away to poorer areas.  Equally I feel that we have to be prepared to modernise, with actions that seem geared as much to bring down elected Government as to lift pay being counter productive to us all.
The NHS could be so much better but the assumption of ever increasing annual funding makes those in charge lazy and complacent to the point that they achieve less and less. The budget is not clueless. It is a recognised economic tactic although badly presented. What was clear is that more of the Sunak same was not going to achieve much at all.
We are a nation caught in a perfect storm, Brexit, Covid, PM changes, a Parliament that has forgotten it's role and an electorate desperate for something, anything, to appear normal again. We have to be very careful in all the angst and chaos that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It needs sage heads from us all not just jibes from each side.
The last thing we need is to continue uncompetitive, to not encourage the entrepreneurs and clever people to work here because we don't like them earning too much. To drive those here abroad because they can avoid taxes by living elsewhere. There is always a danger in letting the pendulum swing too far when what we need is balance. It will be a brave superhuman that comes up with all the answers but at least Truss is prepared to try something radical and it could work but ditching it before it has chance is a bit mindless.

[cromwell]

You just don't want to understand it cause it makes hard reading.
When in history prior to the rise of giving credit to everyone could someone on minimum wage leave a shop with the exact same top of the range iPhone as someone on £250K a year? The whole economic structure is skewed by this phenomenon.

No you just want to divert,you just say sofa in the garden big tv and sky are the people bringing this country down.

The uk economy is not structured around iPhone sales. 
Can you answer the question on the people I quoted,more do you still defend Truss "I cannot tell a lie it's all kwasis fault" ?

[Nick]

Cobblers,no it isn't.
Are you saying people like Fred the shred are better?

You just don't want to understand it cause it makes hard reading.
When in history prior to the rise of giving credit to everyone could someone on minimum wage leave a shop with the exact same top of the range iPhone as someone on £250K a year? The whole economic structure is skewed by this phenomenon.

[Barry]

Nick is your television broken? Plus Barry had already mentioned the £8000. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57764601

Not until you had. It is people with £300k+ mortgages that would be looking at an extra £670 a month. 

[cromwell]

But they still have the means to have top end trappings that they shouldn't really have access to, and that is the crux of where the economy of the country breaks down.

Cobblers,no it isn't.
Are you saying people like Fred the shred are better?

[Nick]

And you know exactly that the couch in the front garden are the minority.

But they still have the means to have top end trappings that they shouldn't really have access to, and that is the crux of where the economy of the country breaks down.