Brexit celebrations rub Remainers' noses in it, says

[papasmurf]

Why is the immediate assumption that we have been misled?

I know they have been misled. I haven't been misled, because I did not believe the bullshine and lies from both sides.

I knew Brexit of any kind was and is going to be a disaster especially with a Tory government.

My wife and I have made mitigating plans for the impending disaster, as have many other people I know.

As from Brexit zealots, they will just have to suffer and will get no sympathy from me at all.

I have a lot pf sympathy for those who voted out based on the lies and propaganda they were fed, but they are the ones who will get VERY angry when the they realise that.

[T00ts]

The problem I have is the social unrest that will be caused by those people who voted out realising they have been lied to and fooled.

Why is the immediate assumption that we have been misled? Why is the notion that to no longer wish to be part of the EU, considered to result from us accepting lies. What makes anyone think that those who want out are any less thoughtful than those who want the status quo? It makes no sense. I don't believe that the campaigns for and against had any real impact on the way people voted. It was a vote of trust in the EU and their route of travel.



We have been strong members of the EU for well over 40 years. We have gone along with the ideology and become ever more closely embroiled in the European dream and now the majority have called it out for what it really is. If the political/legal alignment had never been and the EEC had remained as it was I don't think for a minute we would be leaving now. Trade is one thing - a united State of Europe is a completely different kettle of fish.



Let's face it the EU exists to protect old ways. French farming is as behind the times as it ever was. The Euro is proving a financial disaster for many countries yet the EU protects the project before its own.

We have been lied to for 40+ years by successive governments and for once thinking that we were brainwashed enough they asked us our opinion. Well, they have had our answer. Now it is time to make it work. I believe it will.

[papasmurf]

Don't accuse the electorate again of being idiots because up to now the silent majority have stopped the anti democrats in their tracks.

The problem I have is the social unrest that will be caused by those people who voted out realising they have been lied to and fooled.

[T00ts]

One thing that the last 3 years has shown is that those who are waiting for the Brexit process to complete are prepared to take the long view. There are those who love to condemn Brexit voters as nincompoops but the truth is that they have proved themselves the rather silent majority who even though they were confronted by a GE in the busy run up to Christmas still managed to show the doubters who thought they had it all sewn up yet again, exactly what the majority wanted.

I am pretty sure that no-one believes that Friday 11pm is the completed work, it is but the first step. the rest is to follow and the good UK electorate has given the government a leap of faith and 5 years to complete the process and show some clear direction after years of childish pingpong in Parliament.

Don't accuse the electorate again of being idiots because up to now the silent majority have stopped the anti democrats in their tracks.

[Thomas]

Remember though, with Brexit doesn't just end the Remain movement — it also ends the 'will of the people' movement.  Johnson can discharge Brexit and from then on he can say that the "will of the people" has been fulfilled, and he will more or less be free to spend the next few years delivering whatever version of Brexit he thinks he can sell to people.  And that's the key term really — what you can sell as being Brexit, because that's really all that matters.  

Feck me conor , thats a first , a post of yours i have liked.!





This is exactly it , johnson will go all bombastic on friday to portray the fullfillment of brexit , and as evidenced from this forum , brexiters are buying into it big style.



That will then leave him free to sell our "brexit emperors a set of new clothes".



I have said all along that despite brexit being a gift to us the english keep giving , it will come down in the end to a choice for westminster , shafting brexiters in england or shafting the celtic nations and losing the union.



So far its one each , both the english have been shafted and northern ireland has been handed over to the eu like a sacrificial lamb.It remains to be seen how it plays out.



I was laughing reading the comments by barnier yesterday about johnson lying regarding checks on goods from northern ireland to the uk and vice versa.



He even drew up a map of where those checks will take place while johnson continues to deny it?!!

Brexit deal latest: EU draws map where checks on goods will be carried out between Northern Ireland and Britain

Counters claims by Boris Johnson that there will be no checks on goods under Brexit deal

[/b]



https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-deal-latest-eu-irish-sea-goods-check-guide-northern-ireland-1375462">https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexi ... nd-1375462">https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-deal-latest-eu-irish-sea-goods-check-guide-northern-ireland-1375462

Brexit: New checks on goods entering NI 'indispensible' says Barnier



Last week the prime minister suggested GB-NI trade would remain 'unfettered.'



But the EU's chief negotiator said the UK's choices make frictionless trade 'impossible.'



The Brexit deal means Northern Ireland will follow EU rules on agricultural and manufactured goods - the rest of the UK will not.



Additionally, the whole of the UK will leave the EU's customs union but Northern Ireland will continue to enforce the EU's customs code at its ports.



This means some new checks and processes for goods moving between Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK.



Mr Barnier made the comments at Queen's University, Belfast, on Monday evening.



Earlier on Monday he met with Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar, who warned that reaching agreement would become harder if the UK sought to diverge from EU rules.



Mr Barnier also met with Northern Ireland's deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill and Economy Minister Diane Dodds at Stormont Castle.

[/b]



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51273187">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51273187

[Thomas]

There certainly is a 'WE'.....and whether you like it or not , YOU are part of the 'WE', as it is the UK that is leaving the EU - not JUST England.



So yes, it is another 'beginning' - but as ever, the 'future' cannot be seen - even if many  people claim otherwise. Undoubtedly, some 'event's are predictable, as being likely 'because of' etc......but despite various claims otherwise, magic crystal balls do not exist.

Irish reunification has naturally existed for quite a while - and won't disappear, just like Scotland's independence theme - but Brexit WILL take place come Friday - and that will be the END of the 'Remain' camp.

It will of course be replaced almost immediately by a 'Rejoin' faction, which will be the new home for Remainers....

As ever stevlin you climb out of the woodwork from where you have been silent and jump in left foot first .



There is no "we". Quite clearly no one is suggesting only england is leaving this friday , so what are you talking about? If you actually read my post to toots , i am saying no one is leaving this friday.



...but even if the uk was leaving this friday , it still wouldnt mean there is a "we". Dragging three other countries through the mud with you in pursuit of brexit , against the popular vote in two of them , doesnt mean there is a "we".



You might not wish to accept that , but believe you me everyone else outside your wee british nationalist bubble understands completely there is no we in the yookay.

So yes, it is another 'beginning' - but as ever, the 'future' cannot be seen - even if many  people claim otherwise. Undoubtedly, some 'event's are predictable, as being likely 'because of' etc......but despite various claims otherwise, magic crystal balls do not exist

Well thats a fackin laugh. How magnanimous of you stevlin.



No one is claiming to see the future , we are dealing with the present and the facts as they stand. On Friday , the yookay is merely withdrawing 73 meps from brussells , and attaining the ability to do its own trade deals.



Now correct me if im wrong but this wasnt what you , and many others on here voted for when you voted brexit no?



The man , thats yourself , who has spent the last 4 years on two forums that i have debated you , arguing passionately about the "ludicrous amounts" of money being paid from westminster to the eu , now going strangely silent over the fact the yookay will be paying £8.9 billion in fees over the next 11 months , not to mention further amounts to be paid later on.



Whats the matter stevlin? lost your voice?



Boris johnson seems to have mesmerised you hardcore brexiters with his BRINO on friday , with the promise of jam tommorrow later this year in the form of a potential hard brexit which will never happen , and despite all you have argued for over 4 years , half of you are standing cheering him on and the other half like you remaining silent.



The feckin mind boggles.

Irish reunification has naturally existed for quite a while - and won't disappear, just like Scotland's independence theme - but Brexit WILL take place come Friday - and that will be the END of the 'Remain' camp.

Brexit wont take place friday. BRINO is what is taking place , and if you starry eyed brexit mooncalfs are quite happy for johnson selling you a pup , you carry on while the rest of us roar with laughter.



The "remain " camp is stronger than ever in scotland , the remain camp is getting to remain in northern ireland , and i dont see english remainers going anywhere.



...but dont mind me , you carry on deluding yourself as ever.



If you think a few ten bob bits and rings on big ben are what brexit has been all about these past four years , it wont just be thomas the scot indy supporter laughing at you  , but the rest of the world into the bargain.

[cromwell]

I think you're missing the point though.  So let's say even if the EU did collapse tomorrow — what do you think happens then? The member states would set out to rebuild trade links with their neighbours, much in the same way the UK is setting out to do now.  So one by one, and treaty by treaty, these countries gradually rebuild their trade alliances.  One day it's a customs agreement of some sort, or a services agreement, or an agreement on access to eachothers' markets, or an agreement on migration — until eventually each of those countries find themselves in a position where they have a myriad of agreements on a myriad of matters with a myriad of countries.  This isn't mad speculation, it's pretty much the way the world works.  



But that poses a problem for Europe in a world where the West no longer calls the shots as it once could, and new competitors and players have arisen.  Europe is ultimately, by continental geographic sizes, tiny.  Despite that, there are around 40 countries squeezed onto the continental peninsula — while if you take a large continent like Africa there are around 50 countries.  Europe essentially has an extraordinarily high density of countries and, in Western Europe where effectively all countries were either in the EU or deeply aligned, you have a collection of wealthy and sophisticated economies.  When you have all those economies squeezed into a tiny area, and all those different legal systems, it becomes difficult for them to operate without some form of legal framework maintaining coherency and fluidity in how they do business and political cooperation.



Hence what I am saying — even if the UK leaves the EU and even if the EU fell apart in the morning, the necessity of legal certainty in trade and diplomacy would still remain. There would still eventually need to be agreements, and those agreements will bind the UK to certain terms . . .terms which might be similar to what it had before only they are dressed up as something totally different. The problem now for Brexiteers is that you have to be eternally vigilant and constantly remain informed on the workings of complex agreements to ensure that you aren't being sold a short-term Hard Brexit which is really just a long-term BRINO.

No Conor you are missing the point,how many times does it need to be said that were we still in the common market we joined we wouldn't be leaving and in essence what you say would happen above is the common market,we don't want and don't need a european union.



No we have no problem as you outline,there is a world out there and as I said previously the insults are still flying with Leo telling us we are a small country in a weak position and Macron and others making demands,I must admit that my initial response to them is well ....."Feck you"

[T00ts]

I think you're missing the point though.  So let's say even if the EU did collapse tomorrow — what do you think happens then? The member states would set out to rebuild trade links with their neighbours, much in the same way the UK is setting out to do now.  So one by one, and treaty by treaty, these countries gradually rebuild their trade alliances.  One day it's a customs agreement of some sort, or a services agreement, or an agreement on access to eachothers' markets, or an agreement on migration — until eventually each of those countries find themselves in a position where they have a myriad of agreements on a myriad of matters with a myriad of countries.  This isn't mad speculation, it's pretty much the way the world works.  



But that poses a problem for Europe in a world where the West no longer calls the shots as it once could, and new competitors and players have arisen.  Europe is ultimately, by continental geographic sizes, tiny.  Despite that, there are around 40 countries squeezed onto the continental peninsula — while if you take a large continent like Africa there are around 50 countries.  Europe essentially has an extraordinarily high density of countries and, in Western Europe where effectively all countries were either in the EU or deeply aligned, you have a collection of wealthy and sophisticated economies.  When you have all those economies squeezed into a tiny area, and all those different legal systems, it becomes difficult for them to operate without some form of legal framework maintaining coherency and fluidity in how they do business and political cooperation.



Hence what I am saying — even if the UK leaves the EU and even if the EU fell apart in the morning, the necessity of legal certainty in trade and diplomacy would still remain. There would still eventually need to be agreements, and those agreements will bind the UK to certain terms . . .terms which might be similar to what it had before only they are dressed up as something totally different. The problem now for Brexiteers is that you have to be eternally vigilant and constantly remain informed on the workings of complex agreements to ensure that you aren't being sold a short-term Hard Brexit which is really just a long-term BRINO.

You are right that each nation would be scouting around to be able to function in the world. Before the EU the same was true. So what's your argument for an EU? I have said before the EU is like the mafia. It charges for protection, it achieves that protection by protecting old methods within it's boundaries and eventually that will wreck it. That is only one of the problems but we have done it to death over the last 3+ years.

[Barry]

Did you mean to respond to me or a different post ? I said nothing about anything being "ruinous".

He did call you Gerry, so perhaps he's got a bit mixed up.

[Conchúr]

I can't help but feel that no matter which way you try to paint it at least we won't be tied to the slowly sinking EU Titanic.

I think you're missing the point though.  So let's say even if the EU did collapse tomorrow — what do you think happens then? The member states would set out to rebuild trade links with their neighbours, much in the same way the UK is setting out to do now.  So one by one, and treaty by treaty, these countries gradually rebuild their trade alliances.  One day it's a customs agreement of some sort, or a services agreement, or an agreement on access to eachothers' markets, or an agreement on migration — until eventually each of those countries find themselves in a position where they have a myriad of agreements on a myriad of matters with a myriad of countries.  This isn't mad speculation, it's pretty much the way the world works.  



But that poses a problem for Europe in a world where the West no longer calls the shots as it once could, and new competitors and players have arisen.  Europe is ultimately, by continental geographic sizes, tiny.  Despite that, there are around 40 countries squeezed onto the continental peninsula — while if you take a large continent like Africa there are around 50 countries.  Europe essentially has an extraordinarily high density of countries and, in Western Europe where effectively all countries were either in the EU or deeply aligned, you have a collection of wealthy and sophisticated economies.  When you have all those economies squeezed into a tiny area, and all those different legal systems, it becomes difficult for them to operate without some form of legal framework maintaining coherency and fluidity in how they do business and political cooperation.



Hence what I am saying — even if the UK leaves the EU and even if the EU fell apart in the morning, the necessity of legal certainty in trade and diplomacy would still remain. There would still eventually need to be agreements, and those agreements will bind the UK to certain terms . . .terms which might be similar to what it had before only they are dressed up as something totally different. The problem now for Brexiteers is that you have to be eternally vigilant and constantly remain informed on the workings of complex agreements to ensure that you aren't being sold a short-term Hard Brexit which is really just a long-term BRINO.

[johnofgwent]

Good try Sheepy but I still don't buy it. Parliament is a completely different place now. Ok I agree that there will still be some turbulence but I think the days of really denting UK confidence are past. I think it's Varadkar who has just stated that the EU is stronger than the UK and he is already playing the same game as before in a bid to lead the negotiations but his position is weak.

Germany is struggling, Merkel admits that the EU has to be more competitive, France is struggling, Italy and Greece too. It's not all hunkydory in Euroland. I posted this link on another thread - you might find it interesting if you haven't already seen it...



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7927123/ALEXANDER-VON-SCHOENBURG-says-Germany-fears-Britain-face-reality-Brexit.html">//https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7927123/ALEXANDER-VON-SCHOENBURG-says-Germany-fears-Britain-face-reality-Brexit.html

No toots, it isn't "completely different". It's still full of people who want to reverse this process in the face of public anger at their arrogance. The only difference is they don't have a way to get a bill of their liking through/ don't kid yourself any of those have forgiven and forgotten. Plaid is pushing bull shyte of that sort right now, because they know they face extermination at the next assembly election the way the liberals were exterminated in 2011



And a very large number of the lying shysters who swore blind they would respect the referendum in the 2017 election and immediately strove to do the very opposite are still in the chamber, through the insanity of boris putting up a tory candidate against a brexit party one where they shoot tories on sight. Like where I live, Newport east. Boris's refusal to stand his losers down to give the brexit party a clean path to exterminate remainers will not sit well with many, myself included.



As I see it, the country is divided int three groups. Voters,  Bollox To Brexit members and paid politicians. Only the first group should dodge a rope.

[Conchúr]

As ever Gerry, you write as if the UK reaching the state of 'normality' is somehow going to be ruinous for the UK - yet you are never able to support your claims with credible evidence, in view of the great majority of sovereign countries retaining their rightful sovereignty, AND retaining successful economies.

It has never been denied that Brexit will initially result in the UK experiencing an 'economic ' hit...but you are continuing to ignore reality - as illustrated by many NORMAL countries! The EU is an absolutely unique political institution, with an undemocratic Executive administering a pseudo-United States of Europe. It will only make some form of sense, if/when it morphs into the USSE - and as I have informed you before, it is so 'unsuccessful', ( unless you take Eire's view born of advantageous decades of receipt of   annual multi-billions in subsidy), that it has NOT been replicated elsewhere after nearly 5 decades.

Did you mean to respond to me or a different post ? I said nothing about anything being "ruinous".

[Stevlin]

Remember though, with Brexit doesn't just end the Remain movement — it also ends the 'will of the people' movement.  Johnson can discharge Brexit and from then on he can say that the "will of the people" has been fulfilled, and he will more or less be free to spend the next few years delivering whatever version of Brexit he thinks he can sell to people.  And that's the key term really — what you can sell as being Brexit, because that's really all that matters.  



If the gears of the market and capitalism in general slowly drive the UK — treaty by treaty and deal by deal — into another web of international agreements which limit its "independence" (which is almost certainly going to happen) . . . what will people say then? The Tories will simply shrug their shoulders and say they fulfilled the referendum — and if people don't like it they're going to have to advocate voting for a party that will rip those agreements up.  But when you keep ripping up agreements .....

As ever Gerry, you write as if the UK reaching the state of 'normality' is somehow going to be ruinous for the UK - yet you are never able to support your claims with credible evidence, in view of the great majority of sovereign countries retaining their rightful sovereignty, AND retaining successful economies.

It has never been denied that Brexit will initially result in the UK experiencing an 'economic ' hit...but you are continuing to ignore reality - as illustrated by many NORMAL countries! The EU is an absolutely unique political institution, with an undemocratic Executive administering a pseudo-United States of Europe. It will only make some form of sense, if/when it morphs into the USSE - and as I have informed you before, it is so 'unsuccessful', ( unless you take Eire's view born of advantageous decades of receipt of   annual multi-billions in subsidy), that it has NOT been replicated elsewhere after nearly 5 decades.

[T00ts]

Remember though, with Brexit doesn't just end the Remain movement — it also ends the 'will of the people' movement.  Johnson can discharge Brexit and from then on he can say that the "will of the people" has been fulfilled, and he will more or less be free to spend the next few years delivering whatever version of Brexit he thinks he can sell to people.  And that's the key term really — what you can sell as being Brexit, because that's really all that matters.  



If the gears of the market and capitalism in general slowly drive the UK — treaty by treaty and deal by deal — into another web of international agreements which limit its "independence" (which is almost certainly going to happen) . . . what will people say then? The Tories will simply shrug their shoulders and say they fulfilled the referendum — and if people don't like it they're going to have to advocate voting for a party that will rip those agreements up.  But when you keep ripping up agreements .....

I can't help but feel that no matter which way you try to paint it at least we won't be tied to the slowly sinking EU Titanic.

[Conchúr]

There certainly is a 'WE'.....and whether you like it or not , YOU are part of the 'WE', as it is the UK that is leaving the EU - not JUST England.



So yes, it is another 'beginning' - but as ever, the 'future' cannot be seen - even if many  people claim otherwise. Undoubtedly, some 'event's are predictable, as being likely 'because of' etc......but despite various claims otherwise, magic crystal balls do not exist.

Irish reunification has naturally existed for quite a while - and won't disappear, just like Scotland's independence theme - but Brexit WILL take place come Friday - and that will be the END of the 'Remain' camp.

It will of course be replaced almost immediately by a 'Rejoin' faction, which will be the new home for Remainers....

Remember though, with Brexit doesn't just end the Remain movement — it also ends the 'will of the people' movement.  Johnson can discharge Brexit and from then on he can say that the "will of the people" has been fulfilled, and he will more or less be free to spend the next few years delivering whatever version of Brexit he thinks he can sell to people.  And that's the key term really — what you can sell as being Brexit, because that's really all that matters.  



If the gears of the market and capitalism in general slowly drive the UK — treaty by treaty and deal by deal — into another web of international agreements which limit its "independence" (which is almost certainly going to happen) . . . what will people say then? The Tories will simply shrug their shoulders and say they fulfilled the referendum — and if people don't like it they're going to have to advocate voting for a party that will rip those agreements up.  But when you keep ripping up agreements .....