Electric cars, the green solution?

[Nick]

It depends which vested interests one gets one's info from. But my understanding is that over their lifetime, from factory to scrapyard, electric cars are less polluting than petrol or diesel ones.  How much less polluting depends on how much of the electricity used to charge them comes from renewable or other 'clean' sources. Currently about 1/3 of Britain's electricity comes from renewables and that's likely to increase rapidly. And about 20% comes from nuclear, which is non-polluting (unless there's a radiation leak) but not renewable.

In an electric car the electricity is used once - to charge the battery that powers the car. In an internal combustion engined car, a lot of energy has already been used to refine the crude oil into petrol or diesel before it goes in the tank, a lot of that energy being electricity.

When electric car batteries get old and have less range, the car itself will also be old and not long for this world. But the batteries can still be of some use for static applications, giving a few more years of less demanding use. And the industry is working towards the 100% recyclable battery. The industry is also working to escape from the need for using the more controversial minerals.

Internal combustion engines are only about 30% efficient, electric cars are 90% +. 
My electric car costs £15 to charge at home where as my wife's 4 litre diesel costs £160 to fill. 

[HDQQ]

It depends which vested interests one gets one's info from. But my understanding is that over their lifetime, from factory to scrapyard, electric cars are less polluting than petrol or diesel ones.  How much less polluting depends on how much of the electricity used to charge them comes from renewable or other 'clean' sources. Currently about 1/3 of Britain's electricity comes from renewables and that's likely to increase rapidly. And about 20% comes from nuclear, which is non-polluting (unless there's a radiation leak) but not renewable.

In an electric car the electricity is used once - to charge the battery that powers the car. In an internal combustion engined car, a lot of energy has already been used to refine the crude oil into petrol or diesel before it goes in the tank, a lot of that energy being electricity.

When electric car batteries get old and have less range, the car itself will also be old and not long for this world. But the batteries can still be of some use for static applications, giving a few more years of less demanding use. And the industry is working towards the 100% recyclable battery. The industry is also working to escape from the need for using the more controversial minerals. The belief that EV batteries can't be recycled is a leftover from the early days, by which I mean 10-12 years ago, when there were very few EVs about and there was no immediate need for a recycling process.

[papasmurf]

Using that type of logic, all material for manufacturing vehicles must challenge efforts to reduce all types of adverse environmental effects.

It is the promotion of electric cars being green when they are not the problem.

[patman post]

It is the quantities needed for the mass production of electric cars that challenges the mantra they are green.

Using that type of logic, all material for manufacturing vehicles must challenge efforts to reduce all types of adverse environmental effects.

From your link:

Scientists have confirmed that enough raw materials are available. In most cases, the total deposits will significantly exceed the predicted demand, even if the amount of raw materials needed were to increase in parallel as a result of more demand in other areas.

EVs, power tools, household appliances, etc, are all using batteries. And even appliances and machinery usually run off the mains, and local electrical distribution centres, are being connected to back-up and/or storage batteries.

The current problems for and with EVs — apart from component supply, which is hitting ICVs too — seems to be image, the available power supply, and sufficient quick-charge outlets...

[papasmurf]

But that's not down to electric vehicles. What's being mined are materials used in many products.

It is the quantities needed for the mass production of electric cars that challenges the mantra they are green.
 

[patman post]

Postman Pat I suggest you do some research. This is not a about mining disasters it is about the devastation, environmental, and damage to people being caused by mining, especially in parts of Africa and China.

But that's not down to electric vehicles. What's being mined are materials used in many products.

Drilling and mining oil, coal and gas have been responsible for devastation of the environment and damage to people not even involved in their production...

[papasmurf]

There have been mining disasters for as long as there have been mines, and some countries records have been dire. But to suggest electric vehicles are responsible for more — because for some ingredients for the batteries are mined — when they're materials already mined and used in other products, is a little farfetched...

Postman Pat I suggest you do some research. This is not a about mining disasters it is about the devastation, environmental, and damage to people being caused by mining, especially in parts of Africa and China. 

[patman post]

Add to that the problem of disposal of the batteries. They last for about 10 years or 100,000+ miles.

A good diesel engine can go for a million miles. Modern diesels with DPFs do not pollute the environment too much.

We have over-reacted to the possibility that AGW exists and created this as a scenario:

An uncle had a 1998 Peugeot 406 2000 turbo diesel estate. Its pollution figures were always well within limits. We borrowed it once for a round trip to Paris — about 550 miles — and despite charging up and down the autoroutes, and a bit of running around, we almost did it on one 70 ltr tank of fuel. We might have done it, if I'd been more familiar with the fuel gauge...

[patman post]

I never stated that link did, but the environmental damage caused by the mining and extraction of the material needed is well documented and also videod. (Just Google each material for environmental damage.)

There have been mining disasters for as long as there have been mines, and some countries records have been dire. But to suggest electric vehicles are responsible for more — because for some ingredients for the batteries are mined — when they're materials already mined and used in other products, is a little farfetched...

[johnofgwent]

The facts are, there is nothing definitive

The pro EV movement use the same bullshit "something will have to be done"

A huge laugh is an EDF energy page on the issue

It says nothing concrete or measurable

It burbles about vehicle makers plans to repurpose EV batteries as storage for solar panels etc in government, and private, power generation and storage. It makes comforting noises about new batteries dropping in price from 1000's of dollars per kWh to merely hundreds. Not because anyone is able to do this but because "they say it will be". Same BS Alex Salmand vomited about an independent Scotland having the pound.

It admits no one has managed to crack recycling of vehicle batteries yet but pretends vehicle makers will have this sorted by the time the batteries reach their lifetime.

They wax lyrical that batteries will last for 100,000 miles ignorant of the fact my diesel vectra had over three times that when the easily recycled steel (what was left of it) and aluminium went for scrap when the EMS died a third time.

And they salivate over the fact range anxiety ensures no one will ever use them in the way petrol and diesel engines were, to permit people to get out and see bits of the world their parents could only dream of

[papasmurf]

Apologies, but a quick scan of your link doesn't show me more than what's being mined and vaguely mentions risks of flaked graphite supply from China.

I never stated that link did, but the environmental damage caused by the mining and extraction of the material needed is well documented and also videod. (Just Google each material for environmental damage.)

[Barry]

Add to that the problem of disposal of the batteries. They last for about 10 years or 100,000+ miles.

A good diesel engine can go for a million miles. Modern diesels with DPFs do not pollute the environment too much.

We have over-reacted to the possibility that AGW exists and created this as a scenario:

[patman post]

It is an amusing comment but on the other hand it is verifiable, I suggest you start here, (the mining pollution and environmental disasters are also well documented elsewhere.)


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8390110/#:~:text=The%20individual%20parts%20are%20shredded,%2C%20manganese%2C%20cobalt%20and%20graphite.

Apologies, but a quick scan of your link doesn't show me more than what's being mined and vaguely mentions risks of flaked graphite supply from China. 

It does say:

Scientists have confirmed that enough raw materials are available. In most cases, the total deposits will significantly exceed the predicted demand, even if the amount of raw materials needed were to increase in parallel as a result of more demand in other areas.

So are things as risky as some would have us believe...?

[papasmurf]

Which authority is pushing this?

I don't argue with the quantities of components of the battery. But the unquantified general assertions of what's taken up in their manufacture seems a bit too nebulous to be a researched view...

It is an amusing comment but on the other hand it is verifiable, I suggest you start here, (the mining pollution and environmental disasters are also well documented elsewhere.)


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8390110/#:~:text=The%20individual%20parts%20are%20shredded,%2C%20manganese%2C%20cobalt%20and%20graphite.

[patman post]

Which authority is pushing this?

I don't argue with the quantities of components of the battery. But the unquantified general assertions of what's taken up in their manufacture seems a bit too nebulous to be a researched view...