End of days and climate change

[srb7677]

I think the question of right and wrong needs to be judged by a higher law than that of the secular which is so evidently under the influence of the Devil. Would we want our daughter or son, our mother or father, our sister or brother to be on the screen that displays pornography just for one example? Can we be absolutely certain that their display prepared for the titillation of strangers does no damage either to the voyeur or those producing it? Is it really so innocent?

That is a whole other debate and really needs a thread of its own rather than being discussed at length here. I will start one.

[T00ts]

On the nature of repentance. It has to be genuine of course. But it is hard to genuinely repent for something if you don't think that thing is wrong. I first need to be convinced that something is wrong before I can genuinely repent for it. And I struggle to see anything I do as wrong if it is not hurting anybody else. Social libertarianism has long been a core value for me.

I am open minded enough and willing to listen and learn, and it is hard to ignore all the signs of growing catastrophe which in the light of Revelations is certainly food for thought. But I am still a long way away from being a convinced believer. I have far too many doubts.

But next wednesday, my next day off I will try and set aside some time for a thoughtful read and study of Revelations and see where that takes me.

I think the question of right and wrong needs to be judged by a higher law than that of the secular which is so evidently under the influence of the Devil. Would we want our daughter or son, our mother or father, our sister or brother to be on the screen that displays pornography just for one example? Can we be absolutely certain that their display prepared for the titillation of strangers does no damage either to the voyeur or those producing it? Is it really so innocent? 

[srb7677]

On the nature of repentance. It has to be genuine of course. But it is hard to genuinely repent for something if you don't think that thing is wrong. I first need to be convinced that something is wrong before I can genuinely repent for it. And I struggle to see anything I do as wrong if it is not hurting anybody else. Social libertarianism has long been a core value for me.

I am open minded enough and willing to listen and learn, and it is hard to ignore all the signs of growing catastrophe which in the light of Revelations is certainly food for thought. But I am still a long way away from being a convinced believer. I have far too many doubts. 

But next wednesday, my next day off I will try and set aside some time for a thoughtful read and study of Revelations and see where that takes me.

[T00ts]

Cromwell - oh this is Heaven, am I coming in?
St Peter - no, what's your argument in favour?
Cromwell - I lived a good life and moderated a forum on the Interweb
St Peter - Didn't you read the Bible? It's quite clear that won't wash, you're a sinner you see and your sins need washing away by the blood of Christ
Cromwell - That's what some of the people said during my mortal life time.
St Peter - What about Barry and T00ts, they told you, didn't they?
Cromwell - What do they know, Barry's not even a mod any more he went rogue - you didn't let him in, did you?
St Peter - No, he's still over there arguing with T00ts about whether you can repent in the afterlife
Cromwell - OK, I hope Toots wins otherwise I won't get in.
St Peter - The thing is, everyone is a believer when they get here, they all say that.

(Not based on scripture )

    Oh thank you for the first giggle for such an age! 

[Barry]

An interesting thread but if what is said is correct as a non believer I've had it and will be sent down the route abandon hope all ye who enter here.

Cromwell - oh this is Heaven, am I coming in?
St Peter - no, what's your argument in favour?
Cromwell - I lived a good life and moderated a forum on the Interweb
St Peter - Didn't you read the Bible? It's quite clear that won't wash, you're a sinner you see and your sins need washing away by the blood of Christ
Cromwell - That's what some of the people said during my mortal life time.
St Peter - What about Barry and T00ts, they told you, didn't they?
Cromwell - What do they know, Barry's not even a mod any more he went rogue - you didn't let him in, did you?
St Peter - No, he's still over there arguing with T00ts about whether you can repent in the afterlife
Cromwell - OK, I hope Toots wins otherwise I won't get in.
St Peter - The thing is, everyone is a believer when they get here, they all say that.

(Not based on scripture  )

[T00ts]

An interesting thread but if what is said is correct as a non believer I've had it and will be sent down the route abandon hope all ye who enter here.

You still have time and even in the afterlife you will still be given the opportunity, although now would be better.

[cromwell]

An interesting thread but if what is said is correct as a non believer I've had it and will be sent down the route abandon hope all ye who enter here.

[T00ts]

Here is a non denominational breakdown of Revelations verse by verse. It's not one that I use but on a quick glance it looks ok. I don't know Barry's recommendation either. Great care should be taken when studying scripture and it doesn't hurt to get a variety of interpretations, but there is something within us all that gives warnings if something is not right. My advice is never ignore those promptings.

https://www.versebyverseministry.org/lessons/revelation-2020-lesson-1

[Barry]

 If I could find the entire chapter online next week on my day off it would be awesome.

https://ttb.org/resources/free-5-year-series-downloads

[srb7677]

It is indeed respected by me and admired. If you would prefer to continue this by PM then fine.

Thank you. I need to get ready for work imminently so no time to continue this discussion for now, but will reflect on it.

Am happy to discuss this publicly but if I feel a need to raise anything that is uncomfortable I will PM it. But nothing of that nature springs to mind.

[T00ts]

I have issues in this area to be honest. I am a flawed human being and will occasionally say or do things that I need to apologise for. Like when I snapped at a manager for something that wasn't her fault a couple of days ago and felt a need to apologise. Repenting about wrongs I do to others would be easy in the sense of being something I would and could gladly do, feeling genuine regret.

But certain lifestyle choices in which I feel I am doing nothing wrong to anyone else and which are in no way illegal but which might be frowned upon as sinful is potentially a problem for me. Because I don't feel I am doing anything wrong and don't want to feel that I am doing anything wrong, having always believed in social libertarianism, any recognition of personal sin in my own conduct is psychologically difficult to acknowledge or accept if I am hurting no one else. I feel this as a significant barrier to me being able to ever embrace your faith. It would involve accepting as wrong things I have spent a lifetime viewing as ok, when they are not even against the law.

Examples include occasions - which do not occur frequently - when I might drink excessive quantities of alcohol. It has been many months since I last did so, but it happens. I never hurt anyone and have never seen any moral problem with it. More controversial, I am a male who still has a functioning sex drive but who eschews sexual relationships and doesn't really do casual ones either. This means that I do occasionally seek release by viewing porn. Nothing illegal or which does not involve consenting adults, but it happens. I am highly resistant to being made to feel bad about that, let alone having to repent. I am just not ready to make the changes in my life and outlook to eschew these things permanently and repent for them. I need to be convinced that they are wrong to start with which is a whole other debate that would be off topic here.


It is not the only barrier. I have mentioned before that I have severe qualms about much of the Old Testament. But my own personal conduct occasionally and reluctance to view it as wrong is a big barrier right now, the strongest emotional and spiritual - as opposed to moral and logical - barrier I face to ever becoming a convert.


I have opened up here in a spirit of honesty about even very personal things, and hope my honesty will be respected.

It is indeed respected by me and admired. If you would prefer to continue this by PM then fine.

Your outlook is by no means unusual and is possibly one of the biggest problems with accepting Christ. I look at it this way. Your body is a temple to the Lord, we are made up of a physical body and a Spirit. The two together make our Soul. Our bodies have very strong responses to all sorts of impulses and part of the reason for our being here with a physical body involves strengthening the Spirit to have control of them. Some might think of that as some kind of punishment but it really isn't - it is empowering. Anything that defiles the physical body is off limits. Even if we enjoy something we still recognise when it is wrong.

Because some are 'consenting adults' doesn't make the abuse of their bodies and degradation of one of the most sacred gifts that we are given, acceptable in the eyes of God, but also degrades us. I understand why that is hard to accept, but once we understand what God is asking of us it becomes important that anything that degrades us physically or Spiritually has to be questioned and as I posted earlier Satan is only too ready to persuade us that what we intrinsically know is wrong is ok. The father of all lies. 

This is a huge subject so difficult to deal with here, but God our Father in Heaven wants us to have eternal joy. The fleeting hedonistic happiness that we might feel here has to be weighed up against the prospect of losing that eternal joy. Repentance on the death bed while 'enjoying' whatever during a lifetime might not cut it. God is forgiving and knows we cannot be perfect but that doesn't let us off the hook by allowing all sorts through life and a quick deathbed repentance.

[srb7677]

It's a really big subject and should be taken as a whole rather than in bits but I have heard the 7 heads described as 7 mountains, 7 sources of sin, and 7 is an often recurring number in scripture and seems to hold quite a bit of significance within God's plan. The one wounded and healed head denotes how impossible it is to permanently damage Satan and how he will simply repair and attack from somewhere else. The 10 crowned horns are supposed to represent 10 kings - now is that leaders of beliefs/churches/religions or countries I am not convinced that anyone has an answer. Suffice it that the beast will be all powerful and mankind will be led badly astray with truth called lies and lies called the truth. He is after all referred to as the father of all lies.We see this already. The two horned creature looks harmless- like a lamb - representing the lands and people will follow him as he creates miracles that will impress many but he is just another evil creature that persuades the worship of the devil by many. You have to remember that Satan doesn't act alone. A third of Heaven was cast out with him and works with him to overthrow Christ and rule the world for eternity. That's equal to half of all who have lived and will live.

We are warned that there will be false prophets and many will turn to them believing that they are either Christ at the 2nd coming or some sort of angel. To know the truth we are going to have to listen carefully to the Holy Ghost who will help those of us prepared to listen.

As Christ returns He will bind Satan in chains and put him where he can't mislead anymore - for 1000 years anyway - before letting him lose again before the real end and judgement. Although it is terrifying it has to be remembered that in the end Satan will be conquered but at the moment he is running wild and damaging many.

On my next day off next week I am hoping to find some time to look into this. In the meantime, if you know of any good sources that you can post links to that would be welcome. I think I could do with reading the entire Revelations chapter of the bible again in a spirit of thoughtfulness and contemplation but I no longer own a bible. If I could find the entire chapter online next week on my day off it would be awesome.

[srb7677]

They say we need to repent every day.

I have issues in this area to be honest. I am a flawed human being and will occasionally say or do things that I need to apologise for. Like when I snapped at a manager for something that wasn't her fault a couple of days ago and felt a need to apologise. Repenting about wrongs I do to others would be easy in the sense of being something I would and could gladly do, feeling genuine regret.

But certain lifestyle choices in which I feel I am doing nothing wrong to anyone else and which are in no way illegal but which might be frowned upon as sinful is potentially a problem for me. Because I don't feel I am doing anything wrong and don't want to feel that I am doing anything wrong, having always believed in social libertarianism, any recognition of personal sin in my own conduct is psychologically difficult to acknowledge or accept if I am hurting no one else. I feel this as a significant barrier to me being able to ever embrace your faith. It would involve accepting as wrong things I have spent a lifetime viewing as ok, when they are not even against the law.

Examples include occasions - which do not occur frequently - when I might drink excessive quantities of alcohol. It has been many months since I last did so, but it happens. I never hurt anyone and have never seen any moral problem with it. More controversial, I am a male who still has a functioning sex drive but who eschews sexual relationships and doesn't really do casual ones either. This means that I do occasionally seek release by viewing porn. Nothing illegal or which does not involve consenting adults, but it happens. I am highly resistant to being made to feel bad about that, let alone having to repent. I am just not ready to make the changes in my life and outlook to eschew these things permanently and repent for them. I need to be convinced that they are wrong to start with which is a whole other debate that would be off topic here.


It is not the only barrier. I have mentioned before that I have severe qualms about much of the Old Testament. But my own personal conduct occasionally and reluctance to view it as wrong is a big barrier right now, the strongest emotional and spiritual - as opposed to moral and logical - barrier I face to ever becoming a convert.


I have opened up here in a spirit of honesty about even very personal things, and hope my honesty will be respected.

[T00ts]

I have found this in regards to the beast with seven heads and ten horns......

Revelation 13 NMB - A beast with seven heads and ten horns - Bible Gateway

And there are numerous other items that can be found and read.

It seems to be using symbolism to describe some kind of world global power leading humanity astray. And the number of the beast being the number of a man suggests that at the head of it all is a man of great power leading humanity astray and that no one will be able to operate or trade or earn a living who is not in agreement with him. This beast is said to rise up out of the sea but this too could be symbolic, perhaps rising up out of a sea of humanity? There is also mention of a two horned entity rising out of the earth who seems to act as a henchman of some kind to the beast.

I may well of course be misunderstanding some of this so would welcome a more informed interpretation, so I can understand the theology better.

Whether it is a mood of the moment I know not but I do seem to feel or imagine something stirring in my soul, as if I am on the verge of seeing something I just cannot quite grasp. And I have found myself wondering if there is in fact some actual truth in the end days prophesies. So much, from climate change and climatic disasters to the spread of new diseases, and from the growing threat of nuclear war to the threat of economic meltdown, and from rampant greed and ever worsening inequality to unsustainable population explosions all seem to fit a pattern of ever worsening calamity. I also do wonder to what extent we are really being run by a trans-national global elite sometimes. I don't know. There is much to ponder, but clarity usually comes to me in lightbulb moments when my mind is on other things rather than by forcing myself to think deeply about things.

I am too flawed a human being to ever make a good Christian though. I have way too many doubts and am a wilful sinner in many ways, albeit not ones that hurt others.

I would though like a better understanding of the beast with 7 heads and ten horns which is an obvious symbolic metaphor, as well as the two horned entity that rises out of the earth.

It's a really big subject and should be taken as a whole rather than in bits but I have heard the 7 heads described as 7 mountains, 7 sources of sin, and 7 is an often recurring number in scripture and seems to hold quite a bit of significance within God's plan. The one wounded and healed head denotes how impossible it is to permanently damage Satan and how he will simply repair and attack from somewhere else. The 10 crowned horns are supposed to represent 10 kings - now is that leaders of beliefs/churches/religions or countries I am not convinced that anyone has an answer. Suffice it that the beast will be all powerful and mankind will be led badly astray with truth called lies and lies called the truth. He is after all referred to as the father of all lies.We see this already. The two horned creature looks harmless- like a lamb - representing the lands and people will follow him as he creates miracles that will impress many but he is just another evil creature that persuades the worship of the devil by many. You have to remember that Satan doesn't act alone. A third of Heaven was cast out with him and works with him to overthrow Christ and rule the world for eternity. That's equal to half of all who have lived and will live.

We are warned that there will be false prophets and many will turn to them believing that they are either Christ at the 2nd coming or some sort of angel. To know the truth we are going to have to listen carefully to the Holy Ghost who will help those of us prepared to listen. 

As Christ returns He will bind Satan in chains and put him where he can't mislead anymore - for 1000 years anyway - before letting him lose again before the real end and judgement. Although it is terrifying it has to be remembered that in the end Satan will be conquered but at the moment he is running wild and damaging many.

[T00ts]

Me too, I'll never make a good Christian, but salvation does not come from what we are, but who Christ is.
Christ came to save sinners and that is all of us.

Oh gosh yes we are all sinners in some way or other however we might try not to be. They say we need to repent every day.   Interestingly our ability to accept forgiveness is also very important so although we all think we will be never be 'good enough' we can also take some comfort in that we are promised forgiveness as long as we repent correctly, compensate anyone we have hurt and make every effort not to repeat it. According to some of my reading it is the lack of acceptance of that forgiveness that is the hell some will experience. Without acceptance of it God is unable to lift us. It is really interesting.