Time to cull the charity con?

[patman post]

That's my point. That was way back when and you don't think it's worse now? It's not the kids fault it's the parents and sadly too many parents don't give a hoot. They are more worried that little Mary gets sent home because her skirt is too short or trousers too tight than they are about getting their children to understand about achieving their very best potential and doing the work to achieve it while respecting rules.

Interesting point on school uniforms. I pulled up alongside a bus stop in Morning Lane at school-leaving time with pupils waiting for their buses.

Among the group were a couple of teenage girls wearing hijab headscarves with the school uniform, but their skirts were barely long enough to be classed as pelmets. 

Left me wondering what point the hijab was making...

[patman post]

I see nothing wrong with schools operating as charities. 

Neither do I see it wrong if some parents pay for private schooling. The fact that others cannot afford private education for their children, is no reason to abolish private schools. Badly performing private educational establishments is. 

What appears to be the problem under discussion is the lack of clarity over whether all these schools actually operate as charities and do enough charitable work to qualify for charity tax exemptions. But that should be down to supervision by both the Charity Commission (the effectiveness of which seems questionable), and HMRC.

There surely must also be questions over whether all private schools actually provide good education. Obviously, many do — it's their selling point. But there are others, mainly faith schools, that have thousands of pupils, many in unlicensed premises and unregistered establishments, that are not giving anything like a real education. Where is Ofsted? Where are the local authorities?

https://themuslimtimes.info/2021/08/28/britains-problem-with-illegal-islamic-private-schools/
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/illegal-jewish-schools-doe-covered-abuse-disappearance-pupils-1552902?awt_l=8Q1sv&awt_m=iWQiOIOtyGbOvKU

I doubt private education is lessening chances for state educated pupils — I suggest poorly performing state schools are the main cause of poor literacy and numeracy among today's adults and school leavers...

[papasmurf]

Obviously you don't understand them or you wouldn't have posted stats showing 184,000 suspensions in one term, making my point.

Nick, given how many millions of schoolchildren there are that is a tiny amount. Plus children get suspended for all sorts of reasons these days, some of them frankly stupid.

[T00ts]

T00ts the school I went to was on a large council estate,some of the kids were scrotes and some teachers were thugs.

Kids disrupted,I did too it's what kids do,didn't stop many from going on to be rounded adults.

That's my point. That was way back when and you don't think it's worse now? It's not the kids fault it's the parents and sadly too many parents don't give a hoot. They are more worried that little Mary gets sent home because her skirt is too short or trousers too tight than they are about getting their children to understand about achieving their very best potential and doing the work to achieve it while respecting rules.

[Nick]

Nick, I know because I look at facts and research, you seem to believe the Daily Mail.


https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/permanent-and-fixed-period-exclusions-in-england


Permanent exclusions have increased compared to previous terms
In autumn term 2021/22, there were 2,100 permanent exclusions. This is an increase compared to 1,700 in the previous autumn term, but remains lower than pre-pandemic levels, in autumn term 2019/20 there were 3,200 permanent exclusions. Data for previous years shows that the number of permanent exclusions is typically higher in autumn term than in spring and summer.
The rate of permanent exclusions is 0.03, equivalent to 3 permanent exclusions for every 10,000 pupils.
Suspensions have also increased
There were 183,800 suspensions in autumn term 2021/22. This is also an increase compared to the previous autumn term, when there were 160,000 suspensions and is higher than the final pre-pandemic autumn term when there were 178,400 suspensions. Suspensions are typically higher in autumn term than in spring and summer.
The suspension rate was 2.21, equivalent to 221 suspensions for every 10,000 pupils.

Obviously you don't understand them or you wouldn't have posted stats showing 184,000 suspensions in one term, making my point. 

[Nick]

T00ts the school I went to was on a large council estate,some of the kids were scrotes and some teachers were thugs.

Kids disrupted,I did too it's what kids do,didn't stop many from going on to be rounded adults.

And that's the point you don't get, no one is discussing how they turned out, it's the damage and disruption they caused to other children's education whilst at school. 
I went to state school, it was a Grammar school when I started but changed to a comprehensive in my 2nd year. All my children went to state school, and luckily enough our first child got into the best one of the two so the rest got in also. Meols Cop was ofsted outstanding, the other one was a dumping ground and the vast majority came out of it with nothing. The stories emanating from it were shocking, including about the Head. 

[cromwell]

Sorry I didn't compute that. No doubt they have parents and grandparents who put themselves out to support them. Do they train only at school? It might be useful if you ask them whether there are kids who disrupt classes.

T00ts the school I went to was on a large council estate,some of the kids were scrotes and some teachers were thugs.

Kids disrupted,I did too it's what kids do,didn't stop many from going on to be rounded adults.

[T00ts]

From my postGot family with kids at state schools who are achieving not just the above.

Sorry I didn't compute that. No doubt they have parents and grandparents who put themselves out to support them. Do they train only at school? It might be useful if you ask them whether there are kids who disrupt classes.

[cromwell]

You are all rounding on Nick but he has a point. Cromwell you speak of your family who are obviously grown up, do you have anyone currently in State education?

From my post

one of my nephews also state educated did uni and is very successful in the computer industry and his kids are doing well at state schools one being lined up for the british team in sports.

Got family with kids at state schools who are achieving not just the above.

[T00ts]

You are all rounding on Nick but he has a point. Cromwell you speak of your family who are obviously grown up, do you have anyone currently in State education? I am State educated and so were my daughters but to be honest if they hadn't got into the top grammar in this area they would have gone private and took the entrance exams in readiness in case the 11+ didn't provide, no matter what it would have meant to us as a family. Why? Because at that time their school would have been the local dumping ground. It is not as bad now I understand but is overcrowded and discipline is let's say relaxed.

Another year will see my youngest grandchild be ready for school and my daughter is already very concerned at what she sees coming out of that school and it is rated as good. His nursery is rated excellent. My current experience is from friends who are teachers, both at Junior and senior level and the stories they tell are quite scary. Yes you have the good ones whose parents support them but there are far too many cases where they are involved more in crowd control and that limits what can be taught. Add to that the very real concerns of those teachers at what is being taught in terms of personal relationships. This is only adding to the general confusion and depression in kids.

It would be great if the State system would emulate what the private sector does if only in discipline but tell little Johnny off and Dad rocks up at the school threatening the teacher. There is a very basic problem in the running of the system and you really cannot blame parents for making a choice to protect their own child and aim higher. 

[papasmurf]

You wilfully lack the vision or any hope for this school generation and future ones too largely based on sky installations made decades ago and a false picture conjured up in your own mind.

Precisely, Nick is biased, prejudiced, ill-informed and out of date.

[papasmurf]

How do you know what there is, you have no children. I have 4 that have all been through the system, I can assure you there are.

Nick, I know because I look at facts and research, you seem to believe the Daily Mail.


https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/permanent-and-fixed-period-exclusions-in-england


Permanent exclusions have increased compared to previous terms
In autumn term 2021/22, there were 2,100 permanent exclusions. This is an increase compared to 1,700 in the previous autumn term, but remains lower than pre-pandemic levels, in autumn term 2019/20 there were 3,200 permanent exclusions. Data for previous years shows that the number of permanent exclusions is typically higher in autumn term than in spring and summer.
The rate of permanent exclusions is 0.03, equivalent to 3 permanent exclusions for every 10,000 pupils.
Suspensions have also increased
There were 183,800 suspensions in autumn term 2021/22. This is also an increase compared to the previous autumn term, when there were 160,000 suspensions and is higher than the final pre-pandemic autumn term when there were 178,400 suspensions. Suspensions are typically higher in autumn term than in spring and summer.
The suspension rate was 2.21, equivalent to 221 suspensions for every 10,000 pupils.

[cromwell]

I suggest you read it again, I didn't condemn all pupils, I said there are large swathes of unruly children in most schools that disrupt the classes, the schools cannot control them because they don't have the backing of the parents. There were a few when I was at school, today there are many. Schools now have sets that children are put into based on how they did at junior school, and if you're a late bloomer you're stuck in the lowest set with all the no hopers and you're education is defined for the rest of your time at school. Might not sit well with you Mr C but this is these are the  facts.

No they're not facts..... I and two of my brothers went to state schools and kids did, one of my nieces made Oxford and has done well for herself but suffered the abuse from some there private educated that your accent and intelligence don't fit oxford (based purely on her accent) one of my nephews also state educated did uni and is very successful in the computer industry and his kids are doing well at state schools one being lined up for the british team in sports.

Bullys and scrotes can and do appear at all levels witness my nieces experience at oxford where they did their best to make her life a misery.

You want to condemn a whole generation based on your broad brush painting sky tv sofas in gardens and a minority who care little,being in possesion of money and a private education offers no surety of being a good human being or having any care for others.

You wilfully lack the vision or any hope for this school generation and future ones too largely based on sky installations made decades ago and a false picture conjured up in your own mind.

[Nick]

Nick, there are not: - "large swathes of unruly children in most schools." That is a wild inaccurate and ill-informed comment. No wonder the Tories are so low in the polls.

How do you know what there is, you have no children. I have 4 that have all been through the system, I can assure you there are. 

[papasmurf]

I suggest you read it again, I didn't condemn all pupils, I said there are large swathes of unruly children in most schools that disrupt the classes, the schools cannot control them because they don't have the backing of the parents.

Nick, there are not: - "large swathes of unruly children in most schools." That is a wild inaccurate and ill-informed comment. No wonder the Tories are so low in the polls.