End of the Good Friday agreement

[GerryT]

According to you, but not according to the UK government.

Johnson certainly was under intense pressure to sign the agreement BTW.
He refused to do so until he had included Article 16 into it. Which your country was likewise under no obligation to sign.

He was under zero pressure from the EU, the other party to the agreement. The UK asked for extensions and the EU provided them, more would have been given if required. The pressure he was under was from the UK people and his fellow politicians. He was under pressure because of all his lies that he couldn't deliver on as his self imposed clock was ticking down. Art16 isn't the get out clause you think it is, why hasn't the UK triggered it then ?

[Baff]

In what way, if you think it's in conflict state your reason why. And if it were in conflict, what's the problem. The signatures of the GFA are both signatures of the NI protocol, so in effect the NI protocol is an update or expands upon the GFA. It doesn't conflict with it.
You could debate that, the GFA sought to ensure that the disadvantaged people (catholics/nationalists) would have the same rights as normal people. It's core was the right to self determination of the NI people and the right to rejoin NI and IRL without interference from GB or IRL. You can't debate that a hard border in NI is in breach of the NI protocol. That is an agreement between the UK and EU, that includes IRL.

Nobody thought at the time that the UK would leave the EU so there is some uncharted issues with the GFA, that weren't explicitly spelt out, but understood by all. That's why the NI protocol was agreed, it clearly defines those (no border in IRL being one) and it builds upon the GFA. This is why the NI protocol doesn't interfer with the GFA, as you say yourself the GFA didn't mention no border anywhere. That came with the NI protocol. You have to thank Johnson for getting that signed into UK law an and international agreement.

Everyone knew a hard brexit would require a border and as the NI protocol was agreed that meant a border in the UK. This should have been discussed during the 2016 referendum, but as many have said "we knew what we were voting for" so I'll assume you knew this would happen, i.e. a border in the UK.You've got that wrong. Art16 refers to the NI protocol and the workings of its agreement. It's very short, just 3 provisions. But the nature of the whole NI protocol is about not having a border in Ireland, to then suggest that Art16 could be used to erect a border is beyond disingenuous. But not hard to believe coming from the UK. The measures that can be taken under art16  are restricted to scope and duration for what is strictly necessary. Priority is given to the functioning of the treaty. Under Annex 7 governs any measure taken, If the UK were to try using this first they would have to inform the EU through the joint committee with a view to finding a acceptable solution. The UK would report every 3 months with a view to abolition of any measures taken before the expiry of the action.

Why was it Johnson didn't look to have the same clauses about no border between GB and NI, why was that left out ?  Obviously because he knew that that border was needed, but he didn't want to tell that to the Brexiters, he's a liar you know.
No, Art 16 is for unforeseen issues and the action taken is restricted in scope and duration.  The whole point of the NI protocol was to prevent a border IRL to NI.
If the NI protocol in total is a problem, which it seems you think it is. Then you can just pull out of the withdrawal agreement and start negotiating a new trade agreement with the EU, but guess what will be front and central in the talks.

In saying all that, It's in IRL's interest to have as few as possible barriers to trade with the UK, I do think with time that more compromises will be found.

Article 16 is not required to erect a border in Ireland.
The border between North and South Ireland already exists.

The building of customs infrastructure on the NI/SI border is perfectly doable under the terms of the NI protocol.
Due notice should be given perhaps. And agreement over it sought. Using the methods provided in the protocol.

The GFA makes no mention of customs controls on the Irish border whatsoever.
It restricts it's concerns to militarised border checkpoints. Civil ones are allowed.
No return of the watch towers and border forts are planned or expected.


In my opinion the NIP was nothing more than an attempt to seek compromise with Remainers in the UK.
To address their vocally espoused concerns.
I don't feel that these concerns were given in good faith. But instead were nothing more than a cynical attempt to prevent Brexit from occurring.
To raise the stakes for the UK of doing so. "You can leave, but you will lose NI to the EU if you do".
"You can leave the EU but the IRA will start a war with you if you do".
In this they failed.

For my money any attempt to compromise with those people who are being unreasonable is a mistake.
Article 16 effectively neutered their ability to cause trouble. But pandering to them with any such agreement was and still is a waste of time and money.

I have no problem with offering them consultation and advanced notice of any actions we propose to take which may reasonably affect them. That is simply good manners.


Should the people of NI seek to leave the UK and attempt to join the EU, that is their privilege.
I have no problem with that. Same goes for Scotland.

[Baff]

The UK govt put in a border in it's own country, a gun wasn't put to the Johnson's head when he came up with and signed that agreement.

According to you, but not according to the UK government.

Johnson certainly was under intense pressure to sign the agreement BTW.
He refused to do so until he had included Article 16 into it. Which your country was likewise under no obligation to sign.

[GerryT]

our preferred interpretation of the NI protocol signed by the Boris Johnson administration is indeed in conflict with the GFA.
Other interpretations are available.

In what way, if you think it's in conflict state your reason why. And if it were in conflict, what's the problem. The signatures of the GFA are both signatures of the NI protocol, so in effect the NI protocol is an update or expands upon the GFA. It doesn't conflict with it.

The creation of a hard border on the Island of Ireland is not a breach of the GFA.
Militarised checkpoints are.

You could debate that, the GFA sought to ensure that the disadvantaged people (catholics/nationalists) would have the same rights as normal people. It's core was the right to self determination of the NI people and the right to rejoin NI and IRL without interference from GB or IRL. You can't debate that a hard border in NI is in breach of the NI protocol. That is an agreement between the UK and EU, that includes IRL. 

Nobody thought at the time that the UK would leave the EU so there is some uncharted issues with the GFA, that weren't explicitly spelt out, but understood by all. That's why the NI protocol was agreed, it clearly defines those (no border in IRL being one) and it builds upon the GFA. This is why the NI protocol doesn't interfer with the GFA, as you say yourself the GFA didn't mention no border anywhere. That came with the NI protocol. You have to thank Johnson for getting that signed into UK law an and international agreement.
 
Everyone knew a hard brexit would require a border and as the NI protocol was agreed that meant a border in the UK. This should have been discussed during the 2016 referendum, but as many have said "we knew what we were voting for" so I'll assume you knew this would happen, i.e. a border in the UK.

Article 16 of the NI protocol is not a get out clause. It is a diplomatic protocol for managing any conflict of interest between UK and EU in regards to NI.
A formalising of both states ability to act outside of the others agreement and a diplomatic protocol for doing so to the minimum disturbance of the other.
It essentially deals in the provision of notice periods and consultation methods in the event of any change in legislation that affects the other.

You've got that wrong. Art16 refers to the NI protocol and the workings of its agreement. It's very short, just 3 provisions. But the nature of the whole NI protocol is about not having a border in Ireland, to then suggest that Art16 could be used to erect a border is beyond disingenuous. But not hard to believe coming from the UK. The measures that can be taken under art16  are restricted to scope and duration for what is strictly necessary. Priority is given to the functioning of the treaty. Under Annex 7 governs any measure taken, If the UK were to try using this first they would have to inform the EU through the joint committee with a view to finding a acceptable solution. The UK would report every 3 months with a view to abolition of any measures taken before the expiry of the action.

Why was it Johnson didn't look to have the same clauses about no border between GB and NI, why was that left out ?  Obviously because he knew that that border was needed, but he didn't want to tell that to the Brexiters, he's a liar you know.

Does it provide a mechanism for the UK to realign away from the EU single market? No.
That mechanism is provided by our system of government.

It provides a mechanism by which we table any intentions for us to do so to the EU well in advance of us actually doing so. And vice versa.
In this way the other party has time to respond to those proposed changes in an orderly manner. 

No, Art 16 is for unforeseen issues and the action taken is restricted in scope and duration.  The whole point of the NI protocol was to prevent a border IRL to NI.
If the NI protocol in total is a problem, which it seems you think it is. Then you can just pull out of the withdrawal agreement and start negotiating a new trade agreement with the EU, but guess what will be front and central in the talks.

In saying all that, It's in IRL's interest to have as few as possible barriers to trade with the UK, I do think with time that more compromises will be found.

[GerryT]

Dont drag me into your confusion , its quite clear to me . I didn't say the GFA was a devolved issue , I said it refered to devolved issues not the governance of the UK . Devolution in Northern Ireland - House of Commons Library (parliament.uk)

I think you are confused, you said the GFA refers to devolved issues, it doesn't. It refers to a region of the UK and its a signed agreement between two sovereign states. Any issue in NI is not a devolved issue, its a UK issue. NI didn't sign any agreement, the UK did. This is def a UK governance issue.

You can write it as many times as you like but the GFA  is two agrements Good Friday Agreement - Wikipedia

No it's one agreement, no matter what you find in wiki. There are signatures from the IRL and UK govts, that's it. The document does have a section on cross party support, but it doesn't matter one bit if the different parties supported the GFA or not, it was never ever going to stop the agreement, as it was signed by the UK govt and IRL govt after referendums in both IRL and NI. For gods sake the DUP didn't recognise it and still didn't up until very recent times, how do you think that's an agreement between local parties.

Not while there is a customs border and NI is still in the single market  its not (see NI protocol)

The UK govt put in a border in it's own country, a gun wasn't put to the Johnson's head when he came up with and signed that agreement. I remember him in NI telling local business people there would be no barriers to trade GB-NI, what a lair. It doesn't change the fact that NI is part of the UK, and it stays like that until the NI people have a vote on the issue.

Another issue really but another reason why the GFA is waste paper . Outside the EU the UK  can now also leave the ECHR if we choose to and have our own bill of rights . Meaning the UK courts would have supremacy ,something that was high on the list of people who voted to leave .

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU. Yes the UK can leave the ECHR, but NI will remain, thats the way Johnson wanted it and he signed the UK up to this in the NI protocol, good old Johnson.

The Common travel area  has been with us since 1922 which gives citizens of the UK and Ireland along with  the Channel Islands  freedom to live ,work and study  anywhere you like within the British Isles . The  CTA is not dependent on the European Union or memberhip of it .

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK (citizensinformation.ie)

It does, but when you were in the EU you could come study here as an EU citizen and have your degree for free. Now your a 3rd country the fees are between 10k and 15k a year. Thats the same of IRL people travelling to study in the UK. Then there is the issue of professional bodies possibly not recognising your qualifications

Its maybe worth noting that even within the EU we have always had a VAT border an excise border and even a currency border which operated fine under the CTA .  We have never had reason to have a border down the Irish sea and dont with some common sense need one now .

Quote from: GerryT on December 23, 2022, 03:31:11 pm
So again, where does the NI protocol break the GFA, it doesn't.
See above

Common sense ?  the trouble is, it's not very common. IRL is in the EU, where goods/people etc move freely from state to state, no checks. IF the UK ships goods to NI without checks then they can get to IRL (EU) without checks. That's the issue. 
The UK said they would soon have a unicorn CCTV system to check all this and until then the UK has put the necessary checks between UK and NI, as they should. But as soon as that system goes live the physical checks will disappear. Get the finger out is what I say.

You still haven't in any way shown how the NI protocol breaks the GFA, just highlight the text or tell me the subsection, I've a copy and will look it up.

[Baff]

That's confusing. The GFA was between the UK and IRL, not between NI and IRL. Any issues in the GFA are UK issues.  If the brexit that the UK decided upon broke the GFA, which is still in force, then the UK should have sough a different form of Brexit. Its why the UK came up with the work around or in other words the NI protocol, protecting the terms of the GFA. NI position hasn't changed and its why the GFA has not been "broken" no matter what side you look at, Unionist or Nationalist.
Art 16 is not a get out clause, it never was and it never will be. The liar Johnson might have said that but he said a lot of things. Like when he met with unionists in NI he told them to put any customs forms from NI-GB in the toilet, he reneged on that also, another lie. Sunak is going to do what past PM's did and future PM's will do, prioritise the relationship and trade deal with the EU over ignoring the GFA and causing a hard border on the island of Ireland and the loss of the EU trade deal. Reality is Westminster doesn't care about NI, never did, never will. The dopey unionists in NI never seem to grasp that.
The GFA never had the support of the unionist politicians, I wouldn't say that includes the full community. There was a majority vote in NI to remain in the EU and keep the GFA.  Remember the political vote system in NI is gerrymandered. A disproportionate number of Unionist politicians get elected, or used to. That's changing as younger people are moving away from the hard core parties such as the DUP.
I really don't think there's that many people in NI want to solely hitch themselves to the sinking ship Britannia. I think a large majority much prefer access to both UK and EU markets.
It does reinforce it. Again and for I think the third time, what provision of the GFA does the NI protocol break.  Something concrete, I think I have both documents on my laptop somewhere, I' go read the sections if you want to list them.

Your preferred interpretation of the NI protocol signed by the Boris Johnson administration is indeed in conflict with the GFA.
Other interpretations are available.

The creation of a hard border on the Island of Ireland is not a breach of the GFA.
Militarised checkpoints are.

Article 16 of the NI protocol is not a get out clause. It is a diplomatic protocol for managing any conflict of interest between UK and EU in regards to NI.
A formalising of both states ability to act outside of the others agreement and a diplomatic protocol for doing so to the minimum disturbance of the other.
It essentially deals in the provision of notice periods and consultation methods in the event of any change in legislation that affects the other.

Does it provide a mechanism for the UK to realign away from the EU single market? No.
That mechanism is provided by our system of government.

It provides a mechanism by which we table any intentions for us to do so to the EU well in advance of us actually doing so. And vice versa.
In this way the other party has time to respond to those proposed changes in an orderly manner. 

[Streetwalker]

The agreement is ratified by the UK and IRL Govt. You said the GFA was a devolved issue, its not, its a UK wide issue. The GFA is not two agreements, it is a single agreement between the IRL and UK govt, the formation of that agreement had the agreement of many NI political parties, without which any agreement between the two govt's would have been meaningless. But its signed by the UK Govt, it is not a devolved matter.

Dont drag me into your confusion , its quite clear to me . I didn't say the GFA was a devolved issue , I said it refered to devolved issues not the governance of the UK . Devolution in Northern Ireland - House of Commons Library (parliament.uk)

You can write it as many times as you like but the GFA  is two agrements Good Friday Agreement - Wikipedia

That is still the case, NI is part of the UK. 

Not while there is a customs border and NI is still in the single market  its not (see NI protocol)

That is not the only statement in the GFA, it also states the ECHR and joint ministerial council has executive responsibility, it states the ECHR and courts over-rule UK law, it states the people of NI have free travel/work etc north and south of the border.

Another issue really but another reason why the GFA is waste paper . Outside the EU the UK  can now also leave the ECHR if we choose to and have our own bill of rights . Meaning the UK courts would have supremacy ,something that was high on the list of people who voted to leave .

The Common travel area  has been with us since 1922 which gives citizens of the UK and Ireland along with  the Channel Islands  freedom to live ,work and study   anywhere you like within the British Isles . The  CTA is not dependent on the European Union or memberhip of it .

Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK (citizensinformation.ie)

Its maybe worth noting that even within the EU we have always had a VAT border an excise border and even a currency border which operated fine under the CTA .  We have never had reason to have a border down the Irish sea and dont with some common sense need one now . 

So again, where does the NI protocol break the GFA, it doesn't.

See above 

[GerryT]

Your confused alright , GFA was in fact two agreements one between all the political parties of NI  and a UK -Irish agreement 

The agreement is ratified by the UK and IRL Govt. You said the GFA was a devolved issue, its not, its a UK wide issue. The GFA is not two agreements, it is a single agreement between the IRL and UK govt, the formation of that agreement had the agreement of many NI political parties, without which any agreement between the two govt's would have been meaningless. But its signed by the UK Govt, it is not a devolved matter.

The guts of it was about soverienty, current and future , power sharing /consent of communities and disarmament . 

There are many things covered in the agreement, in a nut shell the people of NI will decide their own future, until then the status quo remains, which is NI is fully a part of the UK. It also states the integral right of the ECHR and it overrules UK lay in these matters, the North/South ministerial council made up of IRL and UK PM's and ministers to have executive responsibility for NI ALL decisions to be agreed by both these parties. The areas for co-operation include agriculture, education, transport, environment, waterways, tourism, EU programmes, inland fisheries, aquaculture, health, urban/rural development. Then the whole self determination issue where every 7yrs the people of NI can decide to stay in the UK or leave and join IRL.

Ive already posted where the Protocol breaks the GFA both in spirit and in text ,post 5 

This is what you said:

''It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom''  

That is still the case, NI is part of the UK. That can change if the people of NI decide they want to be part of IRL.

That is not the only statement in the GFA, it also states the ECHR and joint ministerial council has executive responsibility, it states the ECHR and courts over-rule UK law, it states the people of NI have free travel/work etc north and south of the border.

So again, where does the NI protocol break the GFA, it doesn't.

[Streetwalker]

That's confusing. The GFA was between the UK and IRL, not between NI and IRL. 

Your confused alright , GFA was in fact two agreements one between all the political parties of NI  and a UK -Irish agreement 

The guts of it was about soverienty, current and future , power sharing /consent of communities and disarmament . 

Ive already posted where the Protocol breaks the GFA both in spirit and in text ,post 5 

[GerryT]

The referendum was not a devolved matter but a UK wide vote . The GFA refers to devolved issues not the governance of the UK

That's confusing. The GFA was between the UK and IRL, not between NI and IRL. Any issues in the GFA are UK issues.  If the brexit that the UK decided upon broke the GFA, which is still in force, then the UK should have sough a different form of Brexit. Its why the UK came up with the work around or in other words the NI protocol, protecting the terms of the GFA. NI position hasn't changed and its why the GFA has not been "broken" no matter what side you look at, Unionist or Nationalist.

I did , Its was thrown out along with its creator and brought back by Johnson with the get out clause (art 16). Now he's also gone we will see what Sunak is up to when he comes out of hiding 

Art 16 is not a get out clause, it never was and it never will be. The liar Johnson might have said that but he said a lot of things. Like when he met with unionists in NI he told them to put any customs forms from NI-GB in the toilet, he reneged on that also, another lie. Sunak is going to do what past PM's did and future PM's will do, prioritise the relationship and trade deal with the EU over ignoring the GFA and causing a hard border on the island of Ireland and the loss of the EU trade deal. Reality is Westminster doesn't care about NI, never did, never will. The dopey unionists in NI never seem to grasp that.

The UK has left the EU ,that includes Northern Ireland in its entirety  . The core purpose of the protocol was to protect the GFA . It has failed though in that it does not have the support of the Unionist community who see being part of the UK internal market as sacrosanct . 

The GFA never had the support of the unionist politicians, I wouldn't say that includes the full community. There was a majority vote in NI to remain in the EU and keep the GFA.  Remember the political vote system in NI is gerrymandered. A disproportionate number of Unionist politicians get elected, or used to. That's changing as younger people are moving away from the hard core parties such as the DUP.
I really don't think there's that many people in NI want to solely hitch themselves to the sinking ship Britannia. I think a large majority much prefer access to both UK and EU markets.

So no the protocol does not reinforce the GFA it is in conflict with it .

It does reinforce it. Again and for I think the third time, what provision of the GFA does the NI protocol break.  Something concrete, I think I have both documents on my laptop somewhere, I' go read the sections if you want to list them.

[Streetwalker]

If that's your position then the brexit vote itself was unlawful, as it changed the constitutional position of EU membership without cross community support.

The referendum was not a devolved matter but a UK wide vote . The GFA refers to devolved issues not the governance of the UK

The UK govt negotiated the GFA and NI protocol. That was freely done, if you're not happy with them then complain to your MP. 

I did , Its was thrown out along with its creator and brought back by Johnson with the get out clause (art 16). Now he's also gone we will see what Sunak is up to when he comes out of hiding 

You still haven't said what part of the GFA the NI protocol broke. Your contention Because in the spirit of the GFA any constitutional change needs cross community support relates to changes in the GFA, not changes the UK govt make to the rest of the the UK.  The NI protocol reinforces the GFA, it doesn't change it. In fact the NI protocol tries to affirm the GFA agreement, by keeping the status quo. NI is ruled by UK and a member of the EU. This was a concession by the EU to protect the GFA.

The UK has left the EU ,that includes Northern Ireland in its entirety  . The core purpose of the protocol was to protect the GFA . It has failed though in that it does not have the support of the Unionist community who see being part of the UK internal market as sacrosanct . 

So no the protocol does not reinforce the GFA it is in conflict with it .

[GerryT]

Because in the spirit of the GFA any constitutional change needs cross community support . But as the EU are a rules based organisation without a soul I would direct you to the text of the GFA itself

''It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom'' 

That was probably the only line in the whole agreement that was not written for the benefit of the irish nationalists and is one we should defend while the people of N ireland wish it

If that's your position then the brexit vote itself was unlawful, as it changed the constitutional position of EU membership without cross community support. 

The UK govt negotiated the GFA and NI protocol. That was freely done, if you're not happy with them then complain to your MP.  

You still haven't said what part of the GFA the NI protocol broke. Your contention Because in the spirit of the GFA any constitutional change needs cross community support relates to changes in the GFA, not changes the UK govt make to the rest of the the UK.  The NI protocol reinforces the GFA, it doesn't change it. In fact the NI protocol tries to affirm the GFA agreement, by keeping the status quo. NI is ruled by UK and a member of the EU. This was a concession by the EU to protect the GFA.

The GFA and NI  protocol benefits all of the people of NI, they have a unique position, one that benefits the people of NI and business of NI, irrespective of religious or political belief. People of NI can all travel, work freely in the EU. Business can seamlessly trade with the EU, without tariffs/VAT issues. They can also do the same with the whole UK. It is the UK that won't agree phytosanitary agreements with the EU, meaning food and animal checks at the border. There are agreements on goods for NI consumption only. It seems like brexiteers are trying to make a problem when there isn't one.

There is no threat to the constitutional position of NI as part of the UK, so don't be worrying about that.

You may say the EU has no soul but I'd much prefer a rules based system rather that the sh1t show, make it up as you go, rip off the people system the UK has. A two tier system that benefits English people over the others and Wealthy people over the poor.

[Streetwalker]

How does the NI protocol break the GFA ?

Because in the spirit of the GFA any constitutional change needs cross community support . But as the EU are a rules based organisation without a soul I would direct you to the text of the GFA itself 

''It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom''  

That was probably the only line in the whole agreement that was not written for the benefit of the irish nationalists and is one we should defend while the people of N ireland wish it 

 

[GerryT]

The main point if you missed it Gerry was that the protocol breaks the GFA not how well the economy of NI is doing . Everything the UK suggested as a solution to the Irish problem ie border checks was thrown out as against the GFA . Now someone has stood up and said the protocol does that very thing I guess they will have to come up with something else

How does the NI protocol break the GFA ?

The problem is not an Irish problem, It's a UK problem and the solution the UK agreed to was the NI protocol.

There's no need to come up with anything else, you first have to have a problem, then you have to give the UK time to fix the problem. No need to go removing the NI protocol. Anyway, how would the UK get rid of it ?  the UK has a trade deal with the EU, do you want to get rid of that ? because that's what would happen if the UK govt goes making more of those unilateral decisions. No UK govt is going to do that, they don't care about NI.

[Streetwalker]

The main point if you missed it Gerry was that the protocol breaks the GFA not how well the economy of NI is doing . Everything the UK suggested as a solution to the Irish problem ie border checks was thrown out as against the GFA . Now someone has stood up and said the protocol does that very thing I guess they will have to come up with something else