End of the Good Friday agreement

[Nick]

The DUP are the only NI party the UK govt listens to, when have they ever listened to Catholics. The DUP have 20% support in NI, Sinn Fein 30%. When Johnson came to NI he refused to meet with Sinn Fein.

The DUP don't recognise the GFA or WA / NIP, so tell me how that would be a breach of the agreement.

Like it or not, Sinn Fein are still associated with terrorist organisation, the fact that the GFA is still needed proves it. The U.K. government doesn't associate with terrorists. 

[Baff]

The Belfast Agreement isn't between the DUP/Sein Fein and the UK government.
It's between the UK and SI.

You can try and keep this war alive if you wish. This factional hatred. But we aren't going to be in a big rush to help you in this. Sorry.

You clearly seek advantage over those you see as your rivals/enemies and it's clear that you see Brexit as medium towards those ends.
We here, are not going to help you.
You are on your own with that.


So.
Nonsense aside, let's cut to the core of the issue.

We can help you with your border enforcement issues pertaining to SI's continued membership of the EU single market and customs union.
Do you want that help or not?

If not, no bother at all from our side. Easier if you don't.

[GerryT]

Which would be another breach of the GFA    ''A parity of esteem for both communities '' means they have to be listened to ,it seems the UK government are the only ones that are

The DUP are the only NI party the UK govt listens to, when have they ever listened to Catholics. The DUP have 20% support in NI, Sinn Fein 30%. When Johnson came to NI he refused to meet with Sinn Fein.

The DUP don't recognise the GFA or WA / NIP, so tell me how that would be a breach of the agreement.

[Baff]

Yes, what do they call that? Something ambiguity. Structural ambiguity?
When two sides can't agree on something, they sign something that both of them can interpret in their own way.

In this case we agreed to abide by our own rules and interpret the agreement we have signed to have made it clear that we are going to.
And you on the other hand interpret the agreement to mean that we must abide by your rules and have agreed to do so.

Now that you see we are not going to do so, you feel aggrieved. 




Expect from us what you like.
No one cares what you expect. We're none of your business.

You don't rule here. Remember.

The NIP doesn't give you any power here, remember?
So don't waste your own time having any expectations that it does.



What we promised is to give you due notice and seek your agreement first in the event that we intended to change any of our systems to help you enforce your borders. 
Which is what we have done.
As per our international agreement.

You on the other hand have famously failed to do this.
You have no moral high ground here.

You have broken this treaty that you freely signed.
No one else has.
You have sought to abuse that treaty and use it as leverage to break up our country and punish us for rejecting your rule over us. Threatened us with terrorism.
No one else has done that, either.

And that is your international reputation.
That is who you are globally renowned to be.
You have made your bed. You can expect what you like.
Frankly you should expect us to treat you as our enemies. This is what your behaviour warrants.

The path you are walking is not a good one for your country. We don't seek to be your enemies. Don't force it upon us please.



If you are unhappy with the agreements you have signed with this country, you can attempt to amend them with us or you can withdraw from them.
Let Brexit be your guide.
That is perfectly acceptable behaviour. You can withdraw from an international agreement any time you like.

You don't like it? You think we are breaking your rules?
Leave. You are free to leave any agreement you are not satisfied with.

[GerryT]

Exactly.
So when we say we aren't going to do things the way you want us to, we aren't.
And the NIP never ever meant that we would have to.

Once you have come to terms with that, all the rest will make sense to you.

No what we expect is the UK to do what it agreed to.  If you didn't want to do ABC then you shouldn't agreed to it. Suck it up and get on with it.

The NIP and WA most certainly meant you would have to, its an internationally recognised treaty. You promise to do one thing and the EU another thing. That's how it works

[Baff]

Yes, these people have demonstrated that if you ignore them, they will become violent.
Both sides are to be included in the political process. And respected by it.

That is the nature of the GFA.
The route to peace for NI that we have undertaken.

Lots of partisan types who seek Irish unification or the downfall of the UK have chosen Brexit as a medium to exploit towards those ends.
The usual suspects.

And indeed we the same thing happen in Scotland.
We see people voting for the EU because "they hate the Tories" and so on.
The usual suspects.

[Streetwalker]

I don't hear of many complaining, a few crackpot unionist extremists,

 Nobody pays attention to them.

Which would be another breach of the GFA    ''A parity of esteem for both communities '' means they have to be listened to ,it seems the UK government are the only ones that are 

[Baff]

No in no way does the NIP give power over the UK to the EU.

Exactly.
So when we say we aren't going to do things the way you want us to, we aren't.
And the NIP never ever meant that we would have to.

Once you have come to terms with that, all the rest will make sense to you.

[Baff]

Of course the real reason that the protocol for N Ireland came to be and art 16 has never and wont ever be was because Westminster has never wanted to leave .

By Vote 17.4 leave    16.1 remain
constituancy 406 leave  242 remain
MP's 160 leave  486 remain

I think we can see where the problem is , its not that agreement can't be found its because they dont want one to be found that doesn't keep us in bed with Brussels .

That's been the nub of the EU issue since day one.
Politicians refusing to do what they are told.

[GerryT]

He was under pressure from the EU but also from the UK.
The country was very pissed off with waiting for Brexit to happen. To be point where blocking politicians were openly fearing for their lives.
He'd staked his career on delivering it within 2 weeks. 

I think you just answered yourself there. The pressure was all internal, he couldn't deliver on his lies, he couldn't better May's deal, he signed anything to say "Brexit is done", it's still not done.
The EU gave extension after extension and would have given more and continued with trade talks. There was ZERO and that's ZERO pressure from the EU.

Why hasn't the UK triggered article 16?
Because it hasn't needed to.

The EU has ultimately agreed to all the UK's changes so far. Suspensions of checks and the like.
Since it has no say in sovereign UK decisions, it would be dumbarsed not to agree to them.
Just make itself look weak and antagonistic for no gain.

Exactly, there are no issues in NI so no need for any measures to be taken.
It's in the EU's interest to smooth out any wrinkles. The sole purpose of checks is to stop shit contaminated food getting into the EU and goods travelling to just the NI economy to be able to do so without checks.  The reason there were so many checks is Johnson's half arsed negioations and rushing to "brexit day" didn't give enough time to do anything more than a half arsed job.
The UK since 2016 has done plenty to make itself look antagonistic and weak, another example isn't needed.

You want to think the NIP gives you power over the UK.
It doesn't.
You wanted it to be that slap in our faces. It isn't.
You wanted it to show us that you rule here and not us. A remarkably stupid wish, the stupidity of which only eclipsed by your mad belief that you have done so.

No in no way does the NIP give power over the UK to the EU. The UK freely and without duress signed an agreement of how the "arrangements" for NI would work post brexit. All the EU is looking for the UK to do is honour it's word, be a gentleman and follow through on the deal, the handshake, the mans bond. That's not the EU telling the UK what to do, that's the EU helping the UK not look like a untrustworthy nation by doing what it said it would do.
Note the agreement has a structure that allows for continuous alterations to that agreement, to better the arrangement for both the UK and EU. The days of the UK doing what it wants at the expense of other nations is long gone.

[GerryT]

Art 16 allows for safegaurding mesures to be implemented (after consultation) if no agreement is reached . It basically allows a legal pathway for safegaurding measures to be unilaterally retained . 

Yes measures can be implemented but only if Serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties persist. Then the measures are limited in scope and duration to what's strictly necessary to remedy the situation. Priority being given to measures with least disruption to the function of the protocol.

So no, measures can't be retained and first the UK would have to show the damage. Pretty difficult with NI outperforming every other region of the UK, and far less trade issues as there are no barriers NI to EU. THe barriers NI to UK can be greatly resolved by say entering a veterinarian and phytosanitary agreement with the EU, that would be the required measure as it is the least disruption to the protocol. 

For example . A border in the Irish sea is causing societal difficulties that are likely to persist . We therefore wont be having one . Over to you . 

How so, how is it causing a societal issue. I don't hear of many complaining, a few crackpot unionist extremists, the ones that would take the vote and house ownership away from Catholics given half a chance, back to the good old days. Nobody pays attention to them.

Consultation takes place ,no agreement  found, EU may take counter measures . 
More consultation ,no agreement,  UK safegaurding measures retained reviewed every 3 months .

Art 16 is not a means to run rough shot. The EU counter measures could be to suspend trade with all the UK, you would quickly see Sunak ditch NI's interests.

At the end of the day, if the UK wants to do away with all GB - NI checks, it can. That would force a land border in IRL and effectively there is nothing the EU can do about it. But the UK won't because it knows that would crash further the UK economy and no UK PM would do that, reality is England runs the UK and they don't care much about NI.

In other words we can do as we please and keep kicking the can down the road 

No you can't, the EU won't sit by while a third country does that. Yes the UK might like to play its smarmy games, but the EU can take measures and would be prepared to walk away from the UK trade deal if the UK tried to play perfidious albion.

The UK hasnt implemented article 16 because they got rid of the  person who had it put in the protocol and was the only one who was prepared to do so .
 Those now in the room will agree with the EU and the continuation of the protocol as it is  which  takes us back to the OP 

Johnson tried to introduce legislation so he could unilaterally change the Trade & Co-Operation Agreement (including the NI protocol), so he could remove the GB-NI barriers. He pulled out of doing that at the last min because he knew he couldn't (or he finally listed to his advisors) not to. Why would he go to all that bother if all he had to do was trigger Art16.


You haven't figured it out yet, Johnson lied again, to the Brexit mob, saying he can trigger Art16 and tell the EU to go get stuffed. Pluckly little borris sticking it to the bully EU, and the mob lapped that crap up. They loved it. But Johnson and everyone else beside him knew, Art16 doesn't allow for that.


Answer this, what hasn't Art16 been triggered then if its the golden bullet ? 

[GerryT]

Of course the real reason that the protocol for N Ireland came to be and art 16 has never and wont ever be was because Westminster has never wanted to leave .

By Vote 17.4 leave    16.1 remain
constituancy 406 leave  242 remain
MP's 160 leave  486 remain

I think we can see where the problem is , its not that agreement can't be found its because they dont want one to be found that doesn't keep us in bed with Brussels .

You have left.


It's only NI with the special status, that's approx. 2m out of 67m. Art16 is not for ignoring the protocol, it's a lime limited action for unforeseen issues. The WA was about ensuring no land border in IRL and placing checks between NI and GB. That's not unforeseen.

[Streetwalker]

Of course the real reason that the protocol for N Ireland came to be and art 16 has never and wont ever be was because Westminster has never wanted to leave .

By Vote 17.4 leave    16.1 remain
constituancy 406 leave   242 remain 
MP's 160 leave   486 remain 

I think we can see where the problem is , its not that agreement cant be found its because they dont want one to be found that doesn't keep us in bed with Brussels . 

[Baff]

He was under zero pressure from the EU,

He was under pressure from the EU but also from the UK.
The country was very pissed off with waiting for Brexit to happen. To be point where blocking politicians were openly fearing for their lives.
He'd staked his career on delivering it within 2 weeks. 


Why hasn't the UK triggered article 16?
Because it hasn't needed to.

The EU has ultimately agreed to all the UK's changes so far. Suspensions of checks and the like.
Since it has no say in sovereign UK decisions, it would be dumbarsed not to agree to them.
Just make itself look weak and antagonistic for no gain.


You want to think the NIP gives you power over the UK.
It doesn't.
You wanted it to be that slap in our faces. It isn't.
You wanted it to show us that you rule here and not us. A remarkably stupid wish, the stupidity of which only eclipsed by your mad belief that you have done so.

[Streetwalker]

He was under zero pressure from the EU, the other party to the agreement. The UK asked for extensions and the EU provided them, more would have been given if required. The pressure he was under was from the UK people and his fellow politicians. He was under pressure because of all his lies that he couldn't deliver on as his self imposed clock was ticking down. Art16 isn't the get out clause you think it is, why hasn't the UK triggered it then ?

Art 16 allows for safegaurding mesures to be implemented (after consultation) if no agreement is reached . It basically allows a legal pathway for safegaurding measures to be unilaterally retained . 

For example . A border in the Irish sea is causing societal difficulties that are likely to persist . We therefore wont be having one . Over to you . 

Consultation takes place ,no agreement  found, EU may take counter measures . 
More consultation ,no agreement,  UK safegaurding measures retained reviewed every 3 months .

In other words we can do as we please and keep kicking the can down the road 

The UK hasnt implemented article 16 because they got rid of the  person who had it put in the protocol and was the only one who was prepared to do so .
Those now in the room will agree with the EU and the continuation of the protocol as it is  which  takes us back to the OP