NI protocol

[patman post]

Wouldn't surprise me that if there's too much aggravation, bickering and prevarication over settling the various disputes (about who does what and reports to who else over whatever is decided), there'll be more outbreaks of violence, and the whole island of Ireland will eventually unite as the Republic, with some limited outbreaks of "loyalist" violence...

If the situation is allowed to fester while various interests further their own causes, I guess Noraid-type money is likely to pour into "Nationalist activities" once again from overseas Irish in Anzac and US sources...

[papasmurf]

I've asked you this time and time again, if the UK sticks 2 fingers up to the EU and tells them to take a hike what will they do about the Irish border?

Put a border back between Eire and Northern Ireland.

[Nick]

The UK was in the SM up until recently, no gaping holes. The UK is now out and the only land border you have to protect is in Ireland. Your Govt came up with a plan to have a border in the irish sea, that Govt won a landslide GE in 2019. Seems like that's what the majority of people in the UK wanted as he went to that election with the NI protocol as one of his big ticket items. You might not be one of them, so you're in the minority. Johnson was only in office 6 months and he signed the agreement 24th Jan 2020. So how is that an EU problem. SI as you put it is the EU.

I've asked you this time and time again, if the UK sticks 2 fingers up to the EU and tells them to take a hike what will they do about the Irish border?

[GerryT]

Again, like I've said, tell the EU it's their problem. They're the ones with a big gaping hole. The UK has had an open border with SI for years.

The UK was in the SM up until recently, no gaping holes. The UK is now out and the only land border you have to protect is in Ireland. Your Govt came up with a plan to have a border in the irish sea, that Govt won a landslide GE in 2019. Seems like that's what the majority of people in the UK wanted as he went to that election with the NI protocol as one of his big ticket items. You might not be one of them, so you're in the minority. Johnson was only in office 6 months and he signed the agreement 24th Jan 2020. So how is that an EU problem. SI as you put it is the EU.

[GerryT]

A vote in Ireland for unification is due IMO . Theres not a lot of point going to all the trouble of sorting out arrangments for N Ireland if they are going to join Euland  in the near future .

But for now they are part of the UK and I would agree with Donaldson  that they should be treated the same as any other part of it .

It's not so black and white, many people, especially the young, may prefer what they have. One foot in the UK customs market and the other in the EU customs market. The best of both worlds.
You might think it starts to get tricky when the UK market starts to diverge from the EU's, but that's not the issue. The big issue is trade has been moving from UK--NI to IRL--NI, that's really ticking the conservatives off as it's a glaring indication that brexit was and is a flop. The DUP are jumping up and down as they can see with time that trade for Ni will be predominantly be with the EU, not GB. With time Ni may be in the UK but only in name, no vote may ever happen.

[GerryT]

As allude on another thread the unionists having the strop very much does count because if they are not part of the agreement then the Good Friday deal goes out the window and we may as well have a hard border in Ireland which nobody in EU land or the North wants .
The conditions to trigger art 16 have been met according to some ,citing restriction of trade between N Ireland and GB .

They have not been met, the restrictions to trade are the checks that the deal implemented. That's like saying you agree to implement a speed limit of 30km/hr and then after driving at 40km/hr saying that its unfair and that there was no way you could have known that would have happened. Real dumb stuff.

That has not been triggered yet  nor has notification that will be (annex 7)  What they are doing at the moment is trying to aviod it .

What they are doing is blowing smoke up brexiteers arses, keeps them happy, seeing plucky little UK sticking it to the EU. But nobody in the UK has any intention of triggering Art16.

[GerryT]

Which gave us legitamcy  to change it 

First, why would you change the plan that Johnson got such a majority to agree, were all those people wrong.  Secondly the UK don't have any legitimacy in changing the agreement. Changes are possibly by agreement of both parties.

Quite right to , it was a rubbish deal ,thrown out of parliament with a record  defeat for a PM , twice .

At least May's deal didn't put a border in the middle of the UK, it might be a rubbish deal, but it was a hell of alot better than Johnsons. 

Not me personally no , there was still too much ambiguious EUland  double speak in it for my liking . I dont actually think many people did actually like it but after the Mayhem years many thought it was as good as it was going to get and with the protocol safegaurd went for it . 

You say protocol safeguard you need to rethink that one. The provision you're eluding to was agreed by both parties to take temporary measures in the event of unforeseen circumstances. There are a platter of conditions and checks associated with that. For the UK to try suggest (well only Johnson did--the liar) that this provision could possibly be used to overrule the essence of the agreement, which was totally foreseen as the substantive part of the NI protocol IS a border between NI & GB is totally laughable.
This is the reason that nobody in the UK is suggesting triggering that provision, nobody.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Again, like I've said, tell the EU it's their problem. They're the ones with a big gaping hole. The UK has had an open border with SI for years.

Yes and predicated on both sides being in the single market

And if you think it's the EU that has the problem think again.  If they pull that UK-EU trade deal they'd be the ones on the shoreline watching a paddleless country struggling in shit creek.  

[Nick]

If SI is short for Southern Ireland, you are wrong.

What are you talking about? I know SI means Eire, I wrote. 😳 
How am I wrong?

[papasmurf]

Again, like I've said, tell the EU it's their problem. They're the ones with a big gaping hole. The UK has had an open border with SI for years.

If SI is short for Southern Ireland, you are wrong.

[Nick]

And he has a point and that legal challenge the DUP made had real merit but the reality is Ulster has never been treated the same as any other part of the UK especially after the GFA that got overwhelming support in a fair referendum there. 

The DUP were warned pre Brexit referendum that Brexit and the Troubles resolving GFA were not compatible but they pressed ahead which rather suggests the UVF fringe of the DUP really quite liked the troubles - well it did enable their revenue from drug dealing and other smuggling.

The choices for unionists could be this stark:

- Accept a deal that improves things
- Return to the Troubles
- Reunification

Again, like I've said, tell the EU it's their problem. They're the ones with a big gaping hole. The UK has had an open border with SI for years. 

[Unlucky4Sum]

A vote in Ireland for unification is due IMO . Theres not a lot of point going to all the trouble of sorting out arrangments for N Ireland if they are going to join Euland  in the near future .

But for now they are part of the UK and I would agree with Donaldson  that they should be treated the same as any other part of it .

And he has a point and that legal challenge the DUP made had real merit but the reality is Ulster has never been treated the same as any other part of the UK especially after the GFA that got overwhelming support in a fair referendum there.  

The DUP were warned pre Brexit referendum that Brexit and the Troubles resolving GFA were not compatible but they pressed ahead which rather suggests the UVF fringe of the DUP really quite liked the troubles - well it did enable their revenue from drug dealing and other smuggling.

The choices for unionists could be this stark:

- Accept a deal that improves things
- Return to the Troubles
- Reunification

[Streetwalker]

While it's fair to say all DUP are Unionists it certainly does not follow that all unionists are DUP. 

So yes if the wider Unionists really want to reject a deal then it is dead in the water but many of them know that the potential follow ons from that are very much not to their liking. 

Sunak could call the DUP bluff, he could even say to Donaldson 'if you go down this obstinate route then we might very well see a majority in NI favouring unification with Ireland.  And Sir Jeffrey you really don't want to even risk being the DUP leader that delivered reunification do you.'

A vote in Ireland for unification is due IMO . Theres not a lot of point going to all the trouble of sorting out arrangments for N Ireland if they are going to join Euland  in the near future .

But for now they are part of the UK and I would agree with Donaldson  that they should be treated the same as any other part of it . 

[Unlucky4Sum]

As allude on another thread the unionists having the strop very much does count because if they are not part of the agreement then the Good Friday deal goes out the window and we may as well have a hard border in Ireland which nobody in EU land or the North wants .
The conditions to trigger art 16 have been met according to some ,citing restriction of trade between N Ireland and GB .

That has not been triggered yet  nor has notification that will be (annex 7)  What they are doing at the moment is trying to avoid it .

While it's fair to say all DUP are Unionists it certainly does not follow that all unionists are DUP.  

So yes if the wider Unionists really want to reject a deal then it is dead in the water but many of them know that the potential follow ons from that are very much not to their liking. 
 
Sunak could call the DUP bluff, he could even say to Donaldson 'if you go down this obstinate route then we might very well see a majority in NI favouring unification with Ireland.  And Sir Jeffrey you really don't want to even risk being the DUP leader that delivered reunification do you.'

[Streetwalker]

Article 16 has limits, Boris just intended to ignore those

First the UK has to show "serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade". and the DUP/UVF having a strop does not count

Then they have to use the Annex 7 protocol and the UK didn't

And unilaterally proceeding allows the EU to just rear up the whole UK-EU deal which would cause the UK serious difficulties

As allude on another thread the unionists having the strop very much does count because if they are not part of the agreement then the Good Friday deal goes out the window and we may as well have a hard border in Ireland which nobody in EU land or the North wants .
The conditions to trigger art 16 have been met according to some ,citing restriction of trade between N Ireland and GB .

That has not been triggered yet  nor has notification that will be (annex 7)  What they are doing at the moment is trying to aviod it .