The Windsor Framework, getting Brexit undone

[Unlucky4Sum]

I am afraid to reference the lies told by both sides, would take up a lot of space on the forum, frankly you pleading ignorance I just do not believe you. Fullfact has unfortunately a small audience.
Some of them:- Brexit: The Biggest Claims From The Remain And Leave Campaigns That Never Happened (politicshome.com)

Your illiteracy appalls me

[Streetwalker]

The EU is elected, the members of the EU council and EU Parliament are fully elected, you had the option to vote if you wanted. The leader in each country nominates your countries commissioner making up the final and third institute of the EU, the EU Commission.

We have been over this a million times , sending elected people into Europe doesnt mean we have much say on what is decided there . If other countries are happy with that good luck to them ,England wasn't .

The fact is you didn't need to listen to Farage and his lies about Immigrants. Now you're out, how is Immigration going ? are numbers up or down ?  what about the abhorrent Rwanda scheme ?

He didnt lie ,he just baited the hook to catch the undecided.

Immigration levels are too high, thats not brexit though its tory policy

The EU a foot back in the door comedy gold, a foot back in .  You need a change of perspective. Reality is the UK needs and wants access to the EU market. It's very very very very important to the UK. That's why the UK will pay the price for access, It's a UK decision, the EU aren't clambering at the door.  If you don't want to pay the price then you won't have a trade deal.  It doesn't matter who gets in, they will want a trade deal with the EU.

For me its not a price worth paying . We will always have access to the worlds markets along with the EU's trade deal or no trade deal.  Ireland wont be laughing at a no deal nor a razor wire fence in Donegal . You should maybe have a word with your Euro pals about it . But thats me , the tories will cave in and go for the VDL and sell out Sunaks deal and I'll get back to the beer till next time .

[papasmurf]

Only if you were illiterate, are you?  Maybe you've never heard of FullFact etc

And feel free to list these lies you say the remain campaign* used.  Bet you fail.  This link to campaign material used by both sides may help (you realise you're wrong)


* public figures that supported remaining don't count, any arsehole could open their gob and spout rubbish

I am afraid to reference the lies told by both sides, would take up a lot of space on the forum, frankly you pleading ignorance I just do not believe you. Fullfact has unfortunately a small audience. 
Some of them:- Brexit: The Biggest Claims From The Remain And Leave Campaigns That Never Happened (politicshome.com)

[Unlucky4Sum]

Most people had made their minds up on EU membership long before the politicians started waving their in or out magic wands . . .

So what, the majority of those 'most people' supported remaining.  The battle as ever was for the 40% who hadn't made up their minds.  That's how you got from below 10 million to 17 million.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Both sides lied both leave and remain.  Frankly it was scandalous. It was near impossible to find any facts.

Only if you were illiterate, are you?  Maybe you've never heard of FullFact etc
 
And feel free to list these lies you say the remain campaign* used.  Bet you fail.  This link to campaign material used by both sides may help (you realise you're wrong)


* public figures that supported remaining don't count, any arsehole could open their gob and spout rubbish

[papasmurf]

, fish is such a tiny proportion of the UK economy it was never really that important.

Where I live it is very important, coupled with the other damage Brexit has done to the area, it will lose the Tory MP his seat at the general election.

[GerryT]

Most people had made their minds up on EU membership long before the politicians started waving their in or out magic wands 
For all the reasons for voting one way or another it was basically do you want to be ruled by Europeans of our elected government . Not a great choice to be fair but that we can get rid of ours every 5 years if we dont like them was the deal maker for most .

The EU is elected, the members of the EU council and EU Parliament are fully elected, you had the option to vote if you wanted. The leader in each country nominates your countries commissioner making up the final and third institute of the EU, the EU Commission.

We didnt need to be told about immigrants

The fact is you didn't need to listen to Farage and his lies about Immigrants. Now you're out, how is Immigration going ? are numbers up or down ?  what about the abhorrent Rwanda scheme ?

or  fish quotas they were just the side show

Well yes, a total smoke-screen, fish is such a tiny proportion of the UK economy it was never really that important.

That the new deal proposed by sell out Sunak gives the EU a foot back in the door on imposing EU law in the UK is why some are rightly  against it 

The EU a foot back in the door   comedy gold, a foot back in .  You need a change of perspective. Reality is the UK needs and wants access to the EU market. It's very very very very important to the UK. That's why the UK will pay the price for access, It's a UK decision, the EU aren't clambering at the door.  If you don't want to pay the price then you won't have a trade deal.  It doesn't matter who gets in, they will want a trade deal with the EU.

[papasmurf]

Most people had made their minds up on EU membership long before the politicians started waving their in or out magic wands

The rabid outers had. I have seen little evidence anyone else had.

[Streetwalker]

Both sides lied both leave and remain.  Frankly it was scandalous. It was near impossible to find any facts.

Most people had made their minds up on EU membership long before the politicians started waving their in or out magic wands 
For all the reasons for voting one way or another it was basically do you want to be ruled by Europeans of our elected government . Not a great choice to be fair but that we can get rid of ours every 5 years if we dont like them was the deal maker for most . We didnt need to be told about immigrants  or  fish quotas they were just the side show .
That the new deal proposed by sell out Sunak gives the EU a foot back in the door on imposing EU law in the UK is why some are rightly  against it 

[papasmurf]

Only one side lied, only one side broke the rules in illegal campaigning.  Definitely not a fair vote

Both sides lied both leave and remain.  Frankly it was scandalous. It was near impossible to find any facts.

[Unlucky4Sum]

The problem is it was NOT a fair vote, both sides lied.

Only one side lied, only one side broke the rules in illegal campaigning.  Definitely not a fair vote

[papasmurf]

I agree.  If you get a 50% + 1 position in a fair vote then to not act on it is to disenfranchise a majority

The problem is it was NOT a fair vote, both sides lied. 

[Unlucky4Sum]

While I agree the referendum could/should have been organised differently — ie, not enough care was taken to ensure that arguments and information from all interested formal parties could be verified — I'm not convinced that it is advisable to provide for:

a. a turn-out quorum (threshold, minimum percentage), because it assimilates voters who abstain to those who vote no;


b. an approval quorum (approval by a minimum percentage of registered voters), since it risks involving a difficult political situation if the draft is adopted by a simple majority lower than the necessary threshold


https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-AD(2007)008rev-cor-e

I agree.  If you get a 50% + 1 position in a fair vote then to not act on it is to disenfranchise a majority

[Unlucky4Sum]

You choose to ignore the fact that David Lammy as the most obvious example of the problem chose to state openly that the seventeen and a half million who OUTVOTED those 16 million could easily be told to F@@@ off the government are going to ignore you despite our earlier (and utter bullshit) promise to do exactly as you say, which we inly ever meant to apply if you voted to remain.,....

In many ways i wish his view had been taken. He snd his ilk would have been exposed for the scum they are and hung from lamp posts for it and the issue of our exit would have been resolved in days.

Irrelevant

Just because Lammy is a completely arrogant fuckwit and monument to the follies of positive discrimination does not change the essential facts here:

1: The majority of Brits think Brexit was a mistake and have long thought so

2: It is plain evil to portray those that voted remain as evil and non citizens.  For Borky Boy to do this just shows that David Lammy for all his self serving faults at least has one person in the UK he can look down on. 

[GerryT]

This is where we part company , no other trade deal would the other side be demanding we obey a raft of legistlation  overseen by their own courts . The UK will again be taking EU law overseen by the European council and enforced by the ECJ that apply solely to internal UK matters . Thats too high a price so a hard brexit it should be 

The tories of course have other ideas .

The EU wants to protect its market. It has set standards and protections, people feel safe buying from anyone within the market (within reason) as they know these measures exist. With global trade the only way to guarantee this is to make 3rd countries that trade with the EU follow the same standards for what they trade with in the EU, not what they trade locally.
The UK is prob no different, BS standards being a good example. But for some reason in the Aus deal neither the UK or Aus had to change their food standards, this is a worry for UK food producers as Aus has far lower food husbandry standards. But and AUS products being sold in the UK will have to meet BS standards. If there is a trade dispute which courts prevail ? both can't, where are disputes escalated to, Aus courts or the UK supreme court ?  Somebody is the rule taker and somebody is a rule giver.
This is less of a worry for countries on opposite sides of the world, but if AUS and UK were beside each other this would have been a major issue.