The Windsor Framework, getting Brexit undone

[GerryT]

Completely different , I make the decisions in my house ,I like my nieghbours but they are not going to ask me to  chip in to clean their windows . They can clean their own and I'll clean mine . The only thing Im embracing is the Nation State

Bad example. It's more like you and your neighbour decide to build a wall and share the costs, a yr later you don't like the wall and want to knock it down. Hes says get stuffed and you get stuffed. The EU is only concerned with whats in agreements, these so many things you do locally (most criminal law for example) that is outside EU interest, thats more like your window washing example.

Thats a border control issue that should have been sorted by the government , that Brexit gave them a different set of problems doesn't make Brexit bad it makes our government bad .

In this instance your UK govt can do nothing, Brexit took the UK out of the Dublin agreement and as such you can no longer return illegal immigrants coming from France or anywhere else in the EU. Totally brexit related.

Thats rubbish , the only reason USA foodstuffs are banned in the EU is because they are protecting their own markets . Standards in the USA are fine (if different) 

Wrong again, US chlorinated chickens and Beef fed on hormones, their food standards are way below that of the EU and UK. In 2021 the EU agreed with the US that beef raised under a new USA high quality beef HQB scheme can be sold in the EU. This process ensures farmers follow strict processes & systems to ensure the quality of the product. The EU imports €1.8b of beef, a large percentage of that comes from Argentina and Brazil. Your conspiracy theories don't stand up to the slightest of scrutiny.

No it wouldn't I was just being extreme , even without a deal the UK would put pressure on the EU to keep your border open and honour the CTA and GFA , Nobody in reality is bothered about a few lorries moving about a country with a population less than London . Its never been about cross border trade but in weaponising the border to allow the EU to demand better terms

The EU gave the UK major concessions regarding NI, it allowed a region of the UK to effectively stay in the SM and CU, this in no way strengthened its negotiating position. The trade talks weren't like 2 farmers trading sheep and spitting on their hand to agree. The EU's stance is very simple, because its a region with the largest amount of trade deals in the world, not 1 country is favoured over the other, doing that would see the whole thing fall apart. Its not brain surgery, you want access you pay, you want better access you pay more. The better your market the more access you get.

The only people weaponising NI is the UK themselves. It was the UK that signed an agreement that abandoned NI. The UK though (Johnson again) that the rules of the agreement wouldn't be enforced, more cake and eat it mentality. They were shocked when sea border controls became an issue.  While the UK doesn't seem to care about its border, you are very much mistaken if you think the EU feels the same about theirs.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Well as expected a  win for Westminster  (486 majority) and defeat for everyone that voted leave . Just 22 tory rebels . The news channels are not even covering this traitorous act ,covering it up with non stop questions of did Johnson have a party .

Its not Brexit

It is Brexit just not some niche jihadist Brexit that very few have any appetite for.  

Best of luck trying to show a majority of Brits oppose this 'Windsor' framework 

[Streetwalker]

Well as expected a  win for Westminster  (486 majority) and defeat for everyone that voted leave . Just 22 tory rebels . The news channels are not even covering this traitorous act ,covering it up with non stop questions of did Johnson have a party .

Its not brexit 

[GerryT]

Don't be so blinkered! It brought back sovereignty to the UK and control of its borders....

So what changed with your sovereignty. What are you able to do now that you couldn't before. If you think you can just write your own laws as you see fit, no you can't. You've signed trade deals with a number of countries and they restrict what you can do, so whats changed ?  In fact you've lost sovereignty, at least in the EU you had a say in the EU laws, now you don't.
As for borders, the only land border that you have is in IRL and that's not going so well for you, now is it. 
Any other wins from Brexit ?

[papasmurf]

And nowhere have you EVER said 60% must vote leave. You just said 60% rule and that means 60% must vote, and they did.

Yes I have Nick many times and 60% of 48 million did not vote leave. 17 million is NOT 60% of 48 million.

[Streetwalker]

You have as much say as when voting for your local MP has on telling the UK govt he wants his way. It's no different. You need to learn to embrace the idea of making joint decisions with others. 

Completely different , I make the decisions in my house ,I like my nieghbours but they are not going to ask me to  chip in to clean their windows . They can clean their own and I'll clean mine . The only thing Im embracing is the Nation State 

The UK immigrant levels are low related to many other European countries. 

Indeed ,they really should do something about it 

 Not being an EU member will make that worse not better. The UK is out of the Dublin agreement and there is zero incentive for any EU country to try stop migrants heading for the UK and the UK has no way to return them to the country they came from. Brexit didn't help.

Thats a border control issue that should have been sorted by the government , that Brexit gave them a different set of problems doesn't make Brexit bad it makes our government bad .

That's not true, USA food standards are too low and because of that the relevant food products are banned from EU countries. 

Thats rubbish , the only reason USA foodstuffs are banned in the EU is because they are protecting their own markets . Standards in the USA are fine (if different) 

No deal wouldn't necessarily mean a border in IRL, there is still the GFA and NI protocol agreements, you might find the EU putting pressure on the UK to continue to honour those. The UK really has itself in a pickle. But the reality is the UK needs, not wants a trade deal with the EU. WIthout it the UK's economy will go right down the toilet. Sunak knows this. Why UK politicians can't be straight with people for once is beyond me.

No it wouldn't I was just being extreme , even without a deal the UK would put pressure on the EU to keep your border open and honour the CTA and GFA , Nobody in reality is bothered about a few lorries moving about a country with a population less than London . Its never been about cross border trade but in weaponising the border to allow the EU to demand better terms

[Nick]

Nick you can't read. Around 48 million people were on the electoral register at the time of the referendum. Only 17 million or so voted leave. That is NOT a majority of the electorate.

And nowhere have you EVER said 60% must vote leave. You just said 60% rule and that means 60% must vote, and they did. 

[papasmurf]

What would we do without you spelling things out...?

There is zero controlling of immigration or borders.

[patman post]

Really?  Last year 1/2 million legal immigrants into Britain plus 45000 (ish) illegal ones that are known about. That is NOT controlling borders.

What would we do without you spelling things out...?

[GerryT]

We have been over this a million times , sending elected people into Europe doesnt mean we have much say on what is decided there . If other countries are happy with that good luck to them ,England wasn't .

You have as much say as when voting for your local MP has on telling the UK govt he wants his way. It's no different. You need to learn to embrace the idea of making joint decisions with others. Each country has the same proportionate say, you should be happy with that. Unlike the UK union, where one member dictates to the others, if you're happy with that good luck to you.

He didnt lie ,he just baited the hook to catch the undecided.

Immigration levels are too high, thats not brexit though its tory policy

He did lie, like Johnson lied. Easier to bait when you use fear and promises of sunny uplands.
The UK immigrant levels are low related to many other European countries. Not being an EU member will make that worse not better. The UK is out of the Dublin agreement and there is zero incentive for any EU country to try stop migrants heading for the UK and the UK has no way to return them to the country they came from. Brexit didn't help.

For me its not a price worth paying . We will always have access to the worlds markets along with the EU's trade deal or no trade deal.  Ireland wont be laughing at a no deal nor a razor wire fence in Donegal . You should maybe have a word with your Euro pals about it . But thats me , the tories will cave in and go for the VDL and sell out Sunaks deal and I'll get back to the beer till next time .

That's not true, USA food standards are too low and because of that the relevant food products are banned from EU countries. You might say you're happy without a trade deal but if you still want to sell into the EU, you will need to comply with EU standards/testing to be able to sell those products. In that way you will be still following those EU laws.

No deal wouldn't necessarily mean a border in IRL, there is still the GFA and NI protocol agreements, you might find the EU putting pressure on the UK to continue to honour those. The UK really has itself in a pickle. But the reality is the UK needs, not wants a trade deal with the EU. WIthout it the UK's economy will go right down the toilet. Sunak knows this. Why UK politicians can't be straight with people for once is beyond me.

[papasmurf]

Don't be so blinkered! It brought back sovereignty to the UK and control of its borders....

Really?  Last year 1/2 million legal immigrants into Britain plus 45000 (ish) illegal ones that are known about. That is NOT controlling borders.

[patman post]

Unfortunately in specific instances Brexit will have a serious impact. I don't know of any specific instances where brexit brought a serious benefit.

Don't be so blinkered! It brought back sovereignty to the UK and control of its borders....

[patman post]

Nick you can't read. Around 48 million people were on the electoral register at the time of the referendum. Only 17 million or so voted leave. That is NOT a majority of the electorate.

But the 17 million or so were a majority of those who voted. The result was approx 52% to 48% for Brexit.

To insist that to win a referendum requires 60% of the votes cast, or a majority of the registered electorate, would be to decide the outcome on assumptions of how those who didn't vote would have voted...

[GerryT]

Where I live it is very important, coupled with the other damage Brexit has done to the area, it will lose the Tory MP his seat at the general election.

Unfortunately in specific instances Brexit will have a serious impact. I don't know of any specific instances where brexit brought a serious benefit. 

[papasmurf]

More of your slippery as an eel tactics, you said 60% of the electorate and 33 million voted out of 48 million, that's more than 60%, so stop trying to work your way out of it cause you're wrong.

Turn to the old avoidance tactics where you're proved wrong.  

Nick you can't read. Around 48 million people were on the electoral register at the time of the referendum. Only 17 million or so voted leave. That is NOT a majority of the electorate.