The Windsor Framework, getting Brexit undone

[Borchester]

When I was working in Tijuana, a guy picked me up from my hotel in San Diego every morning and we drove over the border into Mexico. In the evening I had to get out, walk through immigration and show my passport containing my US visa. He drove over the border and collected me on the other of immigration. He had a one person fast pass that allowed him through the checkpoint. His heat signature and face were picked up and and checked against his fast pass. This was back in 2002 and on one of the most notorious spots for illegals trying to cross. Why can this technology not be used in conjunction with shipping orders?
The simple answer is it could be.

The other answer is that nothing is simple in BeElBeeBub's world

[Nick]

My point is that both Germany and Denmark are in the single market and customs union.

Therefore there are no tariff difference between importing into Germany or Denmark, therefore there is no need to check goods moving between Germany and Denmark to see if their tariffs have been paid.

And like I've said, checks can be done in advance, paperwork submitted and then a seamless movement over a border using Tijuana style techniques. 

[BeElBeeBub]

There is a border between Denmark and Germany with a huge hyper-market on the German side, selling cheap booze and fags. The Dane's are not happy about that either, what's your point?

My point is that both Germany and Denmark are in the single market and customs union.

Therefore there are no tariff difference between importing into Germany or Denmark, therefore there is no need to check goods moving between Germany and Denmark to see if their tariffs have been paid. 

[Nick]

Different import tariff regimes.

My fault, I should have been ultra precice with language so as not to confuse things.

Different tax and excise regimes are less of a problem. To some extent it is just tolerated.

Remember when you could drive back into the UK with any amount of fags and booze as long as it was for personal consumption?  People used to drive over the Irish border to get cheaper fuel.

That is how the SM worked (and HMRC were not happy).

But import tariffs are another matter.  It's a WTO (that organisation the Brexiters were so fond of) obligation to police your borders and apply your tariff schedule.

There is a border between Denmark and Germany with a huge hyper-market on the German side, selling cheap booze and fags. The Dane's are not happy about that either, what's your point?

Whatever excuses remainers put up as blockers, 99% of the time they are already handled somewhere in the world. 

[Nick]

So I asked for an example of a seamless and invisible border and you gave the example of a border where:

- You needed to exit the vehicle
- You needed walk through immigration
- You needed to show a visa.
- Your driver had to register his face for a fast pass scheme
- He had to drive through a checkpoint.

That isn't invisible or seamless.

For reference, this is what the Irish border looks like today:


Now, be honest, did your crossing into Tijuana look anything like this?

As usual you either choose to miss the point or it's beyond your thinking. 
People who have an express right to, can pass seamlessly, those who don't, as I didn't on the U.S. border have to clear immigration. People apply for a fast pass based on their legitimacy, anyone not cleared in advance has to do what everyone does at a border, clear immigration. 
Freight and driver can pass through with customers clearance done in advance. 
Random checks can be done without upsetting anyone. 

[BeElBeeBub]

I just did , the UK and Eire have had different tax regimes and open borders both pre and within the EU for years .

So if thats the core of your problem you don't have one .

Every European country has different tax rates on certain goods all the EU does is set minimum excise duties . But  on your reckoning Schengen is a crock of shite and France should have a border with Spain because the Spannish only have 2 euros tax on a pack of fags where as France has 8 euros tax

But they do have Schengen for freedom of movement purposes much like we have the Common travel area with the Irish .Its therefore safe to conclude that you dont need a border between different tax regimes .

Different import tariff regimes.

My fault, I should have been ultra precice with language so as not to confuse things. 

Different tax and excise regimes are less of a problem. To some extent it is just tolerated.

Remember when you could drive back into the UK with any amount of fags and booze as long as it was for personal consumption?  People used to drive over the Irish border to get cheaper fuel. 

That is how the SM worked (and HMRC were not happy).

But import tariffs are another matter.  It's a WTO (that organisation the Brexiters were so fond of) obligation to police your borders and apply your tariff schedule.

[BeElBeeBub]

When I was working in Tijuana, a guy picked me up from my hotel in San Diego every morning and we drove over the border into Mexico. In the evening I had to get out, walk through immigration and show my passport containing my US visa. He drove over the border and collected me on the other of immigration. He had a one person fast pass that allowed him through the checkpoint. His heat signature and face were picked up and and checked against his fast pass. This was back in 2002 and on one of the most notorious spots for illegals trying to cross. Why can this technology not be used in conjunction with shipping orders?
The simple answer is it could be.

So I asked for an example of a seamless and invisible border and you gave the example of a border where:

- You needed to exit the vehicle
- You needed walk through immigration
- You needed to show a visa.
- Your driver had to register his face for a fast pass scheme
- He had to drive through a checkpoint.

That isn't invisible or seamless. 

For reference, this is what the Irish border looks like today:


Now, be honest, did your crossing into Tijuana look anything like this? 

[BeElBeeBub]

How is it being handled now, pre-Brexit and Pre-EEC?

Pre EEC they handled it with border posts, barbed wire and army patrols.


Pre Brexit they handled it by being in the same single market and customs union.

Now, we are handling it by the fudge of Johnson "oven ready deal", which is that NI remains in the customs territory of the UK but thr UK will apply EU rules to the corner of it's customs territory that covers NI. 

This results in a customs border between NI and GB as was obvious to anyone who didn't listen to Johnson and Co and actually read the document. 

Of course, given the dissatisfaction with the various procedures and restrictions moving stuff between NI and GB it would be fantastic if brediters would apply the magic tech to that border and make all of those issues go away. 

[Nick]

I just did , the UK and Eire have had different tax regimes and open borders both pre and within the EU for years .

So if thats the core of your problem you don't have one .

Every European country has different tax rates on certain goods all the EU does is set minimum excise duties . But  on your reckoning Schengen is a crock of shite and France should have a border with Spain because the Spannish only have 2 euros tax on a pack of fags where as France has 8 euros tax

But they do have Schengen for freedom of movement purposes much like we have the Common travel area with the Irish .Its therefore safe to conclude that you dont need a border between different tax regimes .

When I was working in Tijuana, a guy picked me up from my hotel in San Diego every morning and we drove over the border into Mexico. In the evening I had to get out, walk through immigration and show my passport containing my US visa. He drove over the border and collected me on the other of immigration. He had a one person fast pass that allowed him through the checkpoint. His heat signature and face were picked up and and checked against his fast pass. This was back in 2002 and on one of the most notorious spots for illegals trying to cross. Why can this technology not be used in conjunction with shipping orders? 
The simple answer is it could be. 

[Streetwalker]

The "tax argument" goes to the core of the problem.  The common tariff is a vital part of the customs union.

You have 2 different tariff regimes there must be a border.  Can you provide an example of *anywhere* where there wasn't a border between 2 tariff regimes?

I just did , the UK and Eire have had different tax regimes and open borders both pre and within the EU for years .

So if thats the core of your problem you don't have one .

Every European country has different tax rates on certain goods all the EU does is set minimum excise duties . But  on your reckoning Schengen is a crock of shite and France should have a border with Spain because the Spannish only have 2 euros tax on a pack of fags where as France has 8 euros tax 

But they do have Schengen for freedom of movement purposes much like we have the Common travel area with the Irish .Its therefore safe to conclude that you dont need a border between different tax regimes . 

[Nick]

Amazing tech.

How does it handle Nail and Dinny, driving down a rural B road to a job with a vanload of copper pipes and tools?

How is it being handled now, pre-Brexit and Pre-EEC? 

[BeElBeeBub]

The tax argument from those who seek to find problems has always been a red herring . When we were in the EU we had different currencies ,different tax and excise rates along with different corporation tax . If we needed a hard border because of tax rates there would be one there already

Niall and Dinny would be getting a visit in the middle of night by the way if they undercut the locals but that aside Builders merchants would adjust their prices to stay competetive . They are not going to go out of business for the sake of 20p on a length of copper

No self respecting smuggler is going to make much smuggling fags between the North and South ,they will be bringing them in from Eastern Europe . In fact thats Irelands problem ,smuggled fags from within their beloved EU .Revenue seize almost 8 million cigarettes at Dublin Port
Just as well Irelands not in the borderless Schengen zone isn't it ?  The open UK border is the least of Irelands problems

As I say remoaners making problems that are not even there , no will overcome minor hitches and make Brexit work .

The "tax argument" goes to the core of the problem.  The common tariff is a vital part of the customs union.

You have 2 different tariff regimes there must be a border.  Can you provide an example of *anywhere* where there wasn't a border between 2 tariff regimes?

And there are vast amounts of money to be made avoiding import tariffs, a large chunk of Brexit was sold on the basis of the UK saving money by setting lower tariffs than the EU.

A few years ago people were making money smuggling garlic into the EU via Norway.  The garlic could arrive at a port in Norway with no import tariffs and was then driven across the Swedish border avoiding the import duty it would have had to pay if it had come directly. 

Your comment about Dinny and Nail getting a visit from the locals rather misses the point.  Dinny and Nail are likely to be the locals who visit people.

Again, if there is fancy tech that can make a border between 2 regimes invisible why can't it be used between NI/GB?  The implementation would be far easier as the UK would control both sides.

Unionists can't complain (though they do) about different laws being applied in GB and NI as they already apply different laws in NI to GB.

[Streetwalker]

Because as long as there have been taxes, there have been smugglers.

Sure, Nail and Dinny might be off to do a plumbing job just over the border (and undercutting the locals with their cheap imported untaxed materials) or they might be flogging that 5k of copper pipe and 10k of tools and returning empty....3 times a day.

In fact who's to say what's in that van. Could be 10k worth of ciggies or even (don't laugh) garlic.

So how does your fancy Amazon tech stop that?

The tax argument from those who seek to find problems has always been a red herring . When we were in the EU we had different currencies ,different tax and excise rates along with different corporation tax . If we needed a hard border because of tax rates there would be one there already 

Niall and Dinny would be getting a visit in the middle of night by the way if they undercut the locals but that aside Builders merchants would adjust their prices to stay competetive . They are not going to go out of business for the sake of 20p on a length of copper 

No self respecting smuggler is going to make much smuggling fags between the North and South ,they will be bringing them in from Eastern Europe . In fact thats Irelands problem ,smuggled fags from within their beloved EU .Revenue seize almost 8 million cigarettes at Dublin Port
Just as well Irelands not in the borderless Schengen zone isn't it ?  The open UK border is the least of Irelands problems 

As I say remoaners making problems that are not even there , no will overcome minor hitches and make Brexit work .

[BeElBeeBub]

Why would anyone bother about a couple of guys going to a job with materials ?

Because as long as there have been taxes, there have been smugglers.

Sure, Nail and Dinny might be off to do a plumbing job just over the border (and undercutting the locals with their cheap imported untaxed materials) or they might be flogging that 5k of copper pipe and 10k of tools and returning empty....3 times a day.

In fact who's to say what's in that van. Could be 10k worth of ciggies or even (don't laugh) garlic.

So how does your fancy Amazon tech stop that?

[Streetwalker]

Amazing tech.

How does it handle Nail and Dinny, driving down a rural B road to a job with a vanload of copper pipes and tools?

Why would anyone bother about a couple of guys going to a job with materials ?