Bring Back Boris?

[Scott777]

Seriously, can you explain why closer cooperation with our EU neighbours is a bad thing, when we are *already* commited to closely integrating with and even defending them as NATO members.

If you want to discuss the pros and cons of military integration, you first have to admit that is the plan, instead of constant denial.

[Unlucky4Sum]

I know we have different views, I was just playing your game.

No Nick you are pushing a false view of what post 115 is and trying to run away from the commitment you gave there.

I've offered to explain by PM why you have an incorrect view of what post 115 is, if you want to be stubborn and ignore help then so be it.

See if you can find any poster to back your pretence that post 115 was by me

[Unlucky4Sum]

Command structure would have been entirely from Brussels.  That was given the go ahead years ago, according to Ursula von der Leyen.  Pretending is was about co-operation is naive and quite false, when it is described here as pursuing structural integration, and having a central command office in Brussels.

Go on then see if you can post a link of any quality to back that that was the plan (and of course according to you is already in existence)

[Unlucky4Sum]

That's ok, the Express was not part of the official Brexit campaign, so if this was disinformation it doesn't matter.  🤣

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1289777/EU-army-latest-brussels-miltary-budget-Ursula-von-der-Leyen-European-Defence-Fund

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0uzOeAHgMk

Not an Army is it, not even close to the central control of EU nations military as was described by your chums in the referendum campaign.

Maybe you don't know that we had joint military activities with European nations before we even joined the then EEC in 1972 and still will have long after we left.  
 

[BeElBeeBub]

Command structure would have been entirely from Brussels.  That was given the go ahead years ago, according to Ursula von der Leyen.  Pretending is was about co-operation is naive and quite false, when it is described here as pursuing structural integration, and having a central command office in Brussels.

It could be next door to NATO headquarters!

Seriously, can you explain why closer cooperation with our EU neighbours is a bad thing, when we are *already* commited to closely integrating with and even defending them as NATO members.

[Scott777]

Exactly ^

Here is how THE lead leave campaign Vote Leave supposed it would be:

'The problem with the EU's approach is that it is not about cooperation - it is about centralising control of defence in Brussels,'

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_defence.html

And of course it was just scaremongering bollocks and they knew it. 

That's ok, the Express was not part of the official Brexit campaign, so if this was disinformation it doesn't matter.  🤣

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1289777/EU-army-latest-brussels-miltary-budget-Ursula-von-der-Leyen-European-Defence-Fund

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0uzOeAHgMk

[BeElBeeBub]

Exactly ^

Here is how THE lead leave campaign Vote Leave supposed it would be:

'The problem with the EU's approach is that it is not about cooperation - it is about centralising control of defence in Brussels,'

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_defence.html

And of course it was just scaremongering bollocks and they knew it. 

Brexiters are going to be shocked when the find out where NATO is headquartered.....

(It's Brussels for those who are hard of thinking)

[Scott777]

PESCO is far from an EU army and anyone arguing that it is is either woefully misinformed or deliberately misleading.

There was and is a logical contradiction at the heart of the "oh noes the EU army!" argument

Those invoking it fail to explain why the EU army would be an unbearable restriction (given it would have been inconceivable that the UK wouldn't have been a significant player in the command structure) whilst NATO membership - in which the UK is under greater obligation and is definitely the junior partner to the US in the command structure.

A greater degree of alignment and cooperation, would be no bad thing, especially when we can ot rely on the  US to honour it's NATO commitments in the face of an increasingly belligerent Russia.

Command structure would have been entirely from Brussels.  That was given the go ahead years ago, according to Ursula von der Leyen.  Pretending is was about co-operation is naive and quite false, when it is described here as pursuing structural integration, and having a central command office in Brussels.

[Nick]

Now look at this view of your post 115.  PM me and I'll explain why you have a different views of post 115 compared to everyone else: 

I know we have different views, I was just playing your game. 

[Scott777]

Read your own link before you yet again throw your insults

'PESCO is similar to enhanced co-operation in other policy areas, in the sense that integration does not require that all EU member states participate.'

So no pan EU army just a further development of the protocols for 2 or more nation task groups that the nations have been able to have and have had for yonks.

Oh and after the article 50 so had it been some compulsory EU army we'd have bene able to veto it were it not for our voluntary disuse of the veto post Art 50

Do try harder next time

It helps if you think about what you write before posting.  "'PESCO is similar to enhanced co-operation in other policy areas".  So, which other policy areas?  As for veto, it's irrelevant if our corrupt politicians don't want to veto it.  Do try harder.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Exactly ^

Here is how THE lead leave campaign Vote Leave supposed it would be:

'The problem with the EU's approach is that it is not about cooperation - it is about centralising control of defence in Brussels,'

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_defence.html

And of course it was just scaremongering bollocks and they knew it.  

[BeElBeeBub]

"The Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) is the part of the European Union's (EU) security and defence policy (CSDP) in which 25 of the 27 national armed forces pursue structural integration"

"On 7 September 2017, an agreement was made between EU foreign affairs ministers to move forward with PESCO with 10 initial projects."

It is you that's the liar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Structured_Cooperation

PESCO is far from an EU army and anyone arguing that it is is either woefully misinformed or deliberately misleading.

There was and is a logical contradiction at the heart of the "oh noes the EU army!" argument 

Those invoking it fail to explain why the EU army would be an unbearable restriction (given it would have been inconceivable that the UK wouldn't have been a significant player in the command structure) whilst NATO membership - in which the UK is under greater obligation and is definitely the junior partner to the US in the command structure.

Taken together the EU nations' defence budget is pretty substantial.  We have a.defence industry of comparable capacity and ability to the US in almost all areas (exceptions being nuclear weapons and nuclear naval units). In some area it, arguably has an edge.

A greater degree of alignment and cooperation, would be no bad thing, especially when we can ot rely on the  US to honour it's NATO commitments in the face of an increasingly belligerent Russia.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Yes I can. I can see people with more than one account, where they are, what their IP is, who there ISP is and or their mobile provider.

You can for the more stupid of dishonest people and not on all ISPs.  PM me and I'll explain further but to be clear I have and have only ever had one account here.

[Unlucky4Sum]

I didn't post reply #115, there is no claim about it.

Now look at this view of your post 115.  PM me and I'll explain why you have a different views of post 115 compared to everyone else: 

[Unlucky4Sum]

Here's a word for you: HYPOCRITE.  I know it's one of those funny words which no bugger can spell, but you may find it useful to describe yourself when meeting new people for the first time.  Just say: hello, I am Unlucky4sum, hypocrite.  😉

You really can't do this debate thing can you