Bring Back Boris?

[BeElBeeBub]

That's your opinion.  People who want less immigration have a different opinion.  Democracy is that thing where the guv asks people's opinion, and tries to implement policy accordingly.  They haven't really tried to reduce immigration.

Not *just* my opinion. Also the opinion of pretty much every economist.

Aside from the obvious societal needs (families, returning citizens etc) the UK economy needs immigration.

Note how we have a large number of vacancies and employers are.comsining about not being able to find labour.

Our current and historical birthrates don't give us enough labour. The ratio of elderly non-workers to workers is increasing. There are only a few ways to address this.- increase birth rate (takes about 2 decades, increases dependent/worker ration in short term and is actively being opposed by policy), decrease elderly population (some *slight* ethical issues) or import labour.

[Scott777]

But it cannot (realistically) reduce immigration because in order to do.so.it would cause such an economic collapse that it would immediately fall.

That's your opinion.  People who want less immigration have a different opinion.  Democracy is that thing where the guv asks people's opinion, and tries to implement policy accordingly.  They haven't really tried to reduce immigration.

[BeElBeeBub]

You see, what you have done is conflate the ability to do something with the opinion on whether it is a good idea.  The government has had the ability to reduce immigration.  The electorate want it, as indicated by Brexit.  Maybe you don't like democracy, but I do quite like it when it works.

I haven't conflated the two at all.

I said the government can do whatever it likes (legislatively)

But it cannot (realistically) reduce immigration because in order to do.so.it would cause such an economic collapse that it would immediately fall.

As Truss showed, a government can do what it likes (again policy wise) but forces outside it's control constrain it.

That is what I mean when I say "the government can't reduce immigration"

Aren't brexiters always telling us that Brexit was not about immigration? Isn't that the response to the "not every brexit voter was a racist, but all racists were brexit voter's" slogan?

[Scott777]

Maybe I should have been clearer - the UK government can do anything it wants *legislatively*

They could *legislate* that everyone can fly or to switch the sun off or to make PI equal to 3.

But that doesn't mean any of those things are a good idea or actually achievable.

Which is exactly the point which seems to have flown, superman like, over your head.

And, as if to back me up here are 5 former HS pointing out exactly how boneheaded and stupid the idea of reducing immigration actually is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65797468

The government could ban all immigration full stop. Ban all tourism, ban all short visits. Heck it could ban all entry into the UK.

Assuming any government were to do such a thing, the economy would collapse and within a.month or so, assuming there hasn't been an actual revolution, the government would have fallen and some adults would reverse the changes.

Truss and Kwarteng found this out the hard way.

You see, what you have done is conflate the ability to do something with the opinion on whether it is a good idea.  The government has had the ability to reduce immigration.  The electorate want it, as indicated by Brexit.  Maybe you don't like democracy, but I do quite like it when it works.

[BeElBeeBub]

No, they can't fly like superman, or switch off the sun, or make you look clever, or turn your verbal diarrhea into gold.  But they can reduce immigration, so you was wrong.  You are a nasty little gaslighting troll.

Maybe I should have been clearer - the UK government can do anything it wants *legislatively*

They could *legislate* that everyone can fly or to switch the sun off or to make PI equal to 3.

But that doesn't mean any of those things are a good idea or actually achievable.

Which is exactly the point which seems to have flown, superman like, over your head.

And, as if to back me up here are 5 former HS pointing out exactly how boneheaded and stupid the idea of reducing immigration actually is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65797468

The government could ban all immigration full stop. Ban all tourism, ban all short visits. Heck it could ban all entry into the UK.

Assuming any government were to do such a thing, the economy would collapse and within a.month or so, assuming there hasn't been an actual revolution, the government would have fallen and some adults would reverse the changes.

Truss and Kwarteng found this out the hard way.

[Scott777]

Theoretically, our government could do almost anything it wanted.

No, they can't fly like superman, or switch off the sun, or make you look clever, or turn your verbal diarrhea into gold.  But they can reduce immigration, so you was wrong.  You are a nasty little gaslighting troll.

[BeElBeeBub]

This is called back-tracking.  We were not discussing your opinion on the effects of reducing immigration.  You simply said the government can't.  So are you now going to admit they can?

Theoretically, our government could do almost anything it wanted.

The government could give every person in the UK £10m if it wanted.

It could cut income taxes to 1% and abolish VAT at the same time.

It could nationalise all foreign businesses and property for £1 compensation.

We only have to look back a few months to see what happens when a government does something like that.

So yes, theoretically the government could cut net migration to 100k. But it would cause such economic mayhem in doing so they wouldn't.

So I don't think it's a stretch to say they "can't", though if you want you can read it as "not stupid enough to"

[Scott777]

The government can't reduce the number of people coming to the UK without absolutely buggering our economy (and causing massive social inustices to boot).

This is called back-tracking.  We were not discussing your opinion on the effects of reducing immigration.  You simply said the government can't.  So are you now going to admit they can?

[BeElBeeBub]

So to sum up, the government can't get the immigration figures down, but it's not hard to ensure students return after studying?  Not sure that quite adds up.

Just because you struggle to understand something doesn't mean it isn't correct.

The government can't reduce the number of people coming to the UK without absolutely buggering our economy (and causing massive social inustices to boot).

As for it  it being difficult to ensure students return after their studies.....

What % of people who enter on student visas then become "undocumented" - IE stay in the UK without a visa

Less than 3%

And that 3% is just the number we can't definitely categorise as either departed or stayed (on a visa) eg might have died in the UK.- that poor lad who survived the Thai cave and came to the UK on a scholarship only to die here.   He's one of your "overstayers".

So to sum up:

The UK, like any large economy, depends on a steady flow of immigration.

Students overstaying their visas is a tiny problem, literally a few thousand a year.

People crossing the channel.in small boats is also a small % of immigration 

The vast majority of immigration is legal and required.

[Scott777]

That is why the government can't get the immigration figures down.

It's not that hard. Firstly most student visas come

So to sum up, the government can't get the immigration figures down, but it's not hard to ensure students return after studying?  Not sure that quite adds up.

[Scott777]

Because it is so easy to disappear in Britain.

If that's true, why is that?

[BeElBeeBub]

Since you "know" so much, what is the total number of dinghies coming across?

Why is it so hard to ensure students return after studying? 

I don't know the exact number of vessels. Prob a couple of thousand. I do know the total number of arrivals is less than 100k (estimated to be around 80k this year, previous years have been lower).  That needs to be set against the backdrop of the 1.1million total immigrants.  They could stop every single illegal immigrant and we would still have about 1million.

It's not that hard. Firstly most student visas come with an attached work.permit for between 2 and 5 years afterwards. This gives the students an opportunity to get a job after graduating and further contribute to he.economy. some of those will then return. Some will apply for a work or similar visa afterwards.

If a student doesn't return after their visa expires they become undocumented.  That means they can't be employed or own a home or rent a home.  So there isn't a huge incentive for a person with a degree and several years experience to stick around. Especially when their skills will be welcome elsewhere.

The idea an economy the size of the UK can get by with net migration numbers below 100k is laughable. Japan is notoriously immigration averse, to the point of harming their economy, and they have net immigration of around 250k per year 

Short of turning the Uk into North Korea (very keen of self reliance they are) the "net migration under 100k" promise is not deliverable.  They know this, yet the also know idiots will keep voting for them if they keep promising it.

[BeElBeeBub]

Explain then why Donald J. Trump was able to restore order on the US southern boarder so quickly by building a wall.

He didn't. He just convinced gullible fools that he did by making  lots of noise and headlines.

It was broadly the same as previous years and climbed significantly in 2019. It did drop in 2020 partly due to some sort of event that restricted travel worldwide......

I'd bet, if COVID hadn't hit he would have ended his presidency at levels not seen for a decade or more.

[papasmurf]

Why is it so hard to ensure students return after studying? 

Because it is so easy to disappear in Britain.

[Scott777]

What % of immigration do you think people coming across in boats is?

It's less than 1%

People immigrating with legal visas - UK migrants returning home, students coming to study, people with work visas etc.

That is why the government can't get the immigration figures down.

For example our entire university sector is basically funded by foreign students.  The tuition fees of UK students basically break even. Almost all the "profit" UK universities make to invest in new facilities, research etc. That comes from the foreign students (higher) fees.

Cut off the flow of student visas (around 10% of immigration) you kill our university sector.

So you're thinking "why can't the government stop some dingies?!"

The government are thinking "how do we stop a major part of our economy collapsing?"

Since you "know" so much, what is the total number of dinghies coming across?

Why is it so hard to ensure students return after studying?