Bring Back Boris?

[BeElBeeBub]

Give the now VERY high rents it is still a puzzle where they are living and working. (Especially with news items like this one:-

Cornwall hospital staff accommodation plea - BBC News


7 hours ago


The chief executive of Cornwall's largest hospital trust has issued a plea for help to find staff accommodation.
Landlords and estate agents are being asked to help health staff find places to stay due to a worsening shortage.
Steve Williamson, chief executive of the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust said finding accommodation was "a real challenge".
He said it was down to fewer available properties and the cost of living crisis.

Mr Williamson said he thought the problem had come about because of more people moving to Cornwall and more properties being used as second homes and Airbnb rentals.
He said: "It is a real challenge for us.
"I think we are seeing more people coming into the region again."
Mr Williams added: "Anything that the community can do to help us provide accommodation for our staff would be immensely beneficial.
"Whether that's rental accommodation to be available for us or whether that might be shared accommodation to be available, we've got staff that would welcome both of those."
Robin Simpson, a doctor in trauma and orthopaedics in Cornwall, said it was a problem for junior doctors.
He said: "Part of the issue with being able to recruit doctors, here in particular, is there is a difficulty in finding affordable accommodation, especially given our current salary.
"It is pretty scarce and hard to find."
Phil Norgan, property manager at Camel Lettings said they had been working with the trust since November 2021 to help staff find accommodation.
He said: "We give the properties to the accommodation team, they have a closed Facebook page which is only available to NHS staff, and we give them as much notice ahead of when we would normally launch it onto a property portal."
He said there were "over 700" staff looking for accommodation when the scheme started, and they had since matched more than 100 with rental properties.
He added: "We'll just keep going until the numbers start to fall."

i don't know what to tell you, housing is an issue in the SW, I imagine immigrants are struggling in exactly the same way as everyone else.
The boom in 2nd homes and ABnB is clearly a problem in some areas - again, what's needed is more housing and (certainly in some areas) disincentives for 2nd home/ABnB. 

The issue with ABnB isn't so much the core concept. it's how it has evolved from the classic BnB idea (someone with a spare room renting it out for short term visitors) or even the short term rental idea (someone living in a nice part of the world renting their house out for a week or two whilst they go on their summer break).  it's how it;s been used as a "back door" to full time professional short term lets.
The first two options don't really impact locals getting housing and can actually be a boon for them as they can monetize their home.
The latter option causes locals to be outbid by businesses.

[BeElBeeBub]

And that's your reply to my question "explain why we cannot realistically reduce immigration."?  That's it?  Because it's not realistic?  🤣  Any more gaslighting for today, or shall I have an early night?

it's not realistic because there would be a very high chance it would cause major damage to the economy.

whilst governments can legislate however they please they are still beholden to outside forces.

Truss learned this lesson the hard way.

Any government enacting any policies that would reduce immigration levels to those indicated would find itself in a Truss type situation and fall.

As governments, as a rule like to stay in power, they avoid doing things that will get them kicked out.

That doesn't stop them promising impossible things in a quest to get the gullible and irredeemably stupid to vote for them.

[BeElBeeBub]

Yeah right, and all the stabbed people in London have been missing their own targets of avoiding to be stabbed for years.  Of course no one ever thought maybe we should deal with the people doing the stabbing, or, I don't know, not having a constantly rising demand for houses.

WTF?!?

[Scott777]

Machines (amongst other things) increase productivity.

That productivity growth can offset shrinking labour.

But that effect operates only in certain areas. Alot of those are already automated. Eg agriculture - huge amounts of labour saving and productivity gizmos. Still need people to do certain jobs - still don't have enough people.

There is a major economy that has tried to take that route.

Japan. They have very low immigration and an aging population (they famously sell more elderly nappies than infant ones).  They are struggling with labour issues.  It is part of the reason Japan has invested heavily in automation and robotics is because they saw the issue coming.  Even with that investment their economy has struggled since the 90's.

Oops, you forgot to mention what we will do after 50 years of mass immigration, when we have machines to do all the manual labour.  As I said, all you have are short-sighted solutions.  The difficulty you seem to struggle with is that a rising population cannot provide any long-term solution at all, because the population is the reason we need more work to be done, why we will need MORE food, MORE houses, MORE schools, MORE healthcare.... .

[Scott777]

The UK has consistently missed it's own housebuilding targets for years.

Yeah right, and all the stabbed people in London have been missing their own targets of avoiding to be stabbed for years.  Of course no one ever thought maybe we should deal with the people doing the stabbing, or, I don't know, not having a constantly rising demand for houses.

[papasmurf]

I don't have the address of every international student and worker! 😁

I imagine they live in student accomodation and let's like other students and are.concentrated in the sorts of places you see students, London, Oxbridge, Manchester, Leeds, Bristol etc.

As for the workers, likewise.  I expect a bias towards renting than the average Brit, at least for the shorter term workers.

Give the now VERY high rents it is still a puzzle where they are living and working. (Especially with news items like this one:-

Cornwall hospital staff accommodation plea - BBC News


7 hours ago


The chief executive of Cornwall's largest hospital trust has issued a plea for help to find staff accommodation.
Landlords and estate agents are being asked to help health staff find places to stay due to a worsening shortage.
Steve Williamson, chief executive of the Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust said finding accommodation was "a real challenge".
He said it was down to fewer available properties and the cost of living crisis.

Mr Williamson said he thought the problem had come about because of more people moving to Cornwall and more properties being used as second homes and Airbnb rentals.
He said: "It is a real challenge for us.
"I think we are seeing more people coming into the region again."
Mr Williams added: "Anything that the community can do to help us provide accommodation for our staff would be immensely beneficial.
"Whether that's rental accommodation to be available for us or whether that might be shared accommodation to be available, we've got staff that would welcome both of those."
Robin Simpson, a doctor in trauma and orthopaedics in Cornwall, said it was a problem for junior doctors.
He said: "Part of the issue with being able to recruit doctors, here in particular, is there is a difficulty in finding affordable accommodation, especially given our current salary.
"It is pretty scarce and hard to find."
Phil Norgan, property manager at Camel Lettings said they had been working with the trust since November 2021 to help staff find accommodation.
He said: "We give the properties to the accommodation team, they have a closed Facebook page which is only available to NHS staff, and we give them as much notice ahead of when we would normally launch it onto a property portal."
He said there were "over 700" staff looking for accommodation when the scheme started, and they had since matched more than 100 with rental properties.
He added: "We'll just keep going until the numbers start to fall."

[Scott777]

Current long term immigration is running in the 500k region. Cutting it to below 100k (as Tories have said) or to "tens of thousands" as some others have is not realistic.

And that's your reply to my question "explain why we cannot realistically reduce immigration."?  That's it?  Because it's not realistic?  🤣  Any more gaslighting for today, or shall I have an early night?

[BeElBeeBub]

Even so that does not answer where they are living and the ones who aren't students are working.

I don't have the address of every international student and worker! 😁

I imagine they live in student accomodation and let's like other students and are.concentrated in the sorts of places you see students, London, Oxbridge, Manchester, Leeds, Bristol etc.

As for the workers, likewise.  I expect a bias towards renting than the average Brit, at least for the shorter term workers. 

[BeElBeeBub]

Is it a serious question?  How about this as an example of a "shrinking labour pool" being fine for the economy: I don't need an economist to tell me that machines are replacing humans in many areas.  Machines do not shrink the economy.  Therefore a shrinking labour pool does not equal a shrinking economy.
Or be pioneers in machine tech to do the jobs which no bugger wants to do.  How about just buying stuff from abroad in the meantime?  I guess you didn't think of those options.  Your solution which involves rising population means we will always need more stuff, including food, housing and schools.  To me, you seem to choose the most stupid solution for the problem.  Your solution is very short-term, but has severe long-term consequences.  How short-sighted.

Machines (amongst other things) increase productivity. 

That productivity growth can offset shrinking labour.

But that effect operates only in certain areas. Alot of those are already automated. Eg agriculture - huge amounts of labour saving and productivity gizmos. Still need people to do certain jobs - still don't have enough people.

There is a major economy that has tried to take that route.

Japan. They have very low immigration and an aging population (they famously sell more elderly nappies than infant ones).  They are struggling with labour issues.  It is part of the reason Japan has invested heavily in automation and robotics is because they saw the issue coming.  Even with that investment their economy has struggled since the 90's.

[papasmurf]

Over half the nonEU immigrants come to the UK for study - some imagine they are spread out around various university towns throughout the UK.


As an aside, international students are the cash cow of our education sector. 

The fees earned by institutions from UK students just about cover the cost of providing their education (depending on course type). The profits from international students are what pays for investment (new facilities, upgrades etc)

For various reasons students are counted in the the "immigration" count, which does rather distort the figures.

A bit over 1/3 of nonEU immigrants come to the UK on work visas.

Only about 10% claim asylum

Even so that does not answer where they are living and the ones who aren't students are working.

[BeElBeeBub]

I would like to know where they are living and where they are working.

Over half the nonEU immigrants come to the UK for study - some imagine they are spread out around various university towns throughout the UK.


As an aside, international students are the cash cow of our education sector. 

The fees earned by institutions from UK students just about cover the cost of providing their education (depending on course type). The profits from international students are what pays for investment (new facilities, upgrades etc)

For various reasons students are counted in the the "immigration" count, which does rather distort the figures.

A bit over 1/3 of nonEU immigrants come to the UK on work visas.

Only about 10% claim asylum

[Scott777]

Can you find any serious economists who says a shrinking labour pool is good for an economy?
It is mainstream economic theory that your ratio of workers to non workers is important, if you have too few workers for the dependent population your economy struggles. Again, can you find a mainstream Economist who thinks reducing the ratio is a good idea?

Is it a serious question?  How about this as an example of a "shrinking labour pool" being fine for the economy: I don't need an economist to tell me that machines are replacing humans in many areas.  Machines do not shrink the economy.  Therefore a shrinking labour pool does not equal a shrinking economy.

Our choice is to either make do with a shrinking local labour pool or import labour.

Or be pioneers in machine tech to do the jobs which no bugger wants to do.  How about just buying stuff from abroad in the meantime?  I guess you didn't think of those options.  Your solution which involves rising population means we will always need more stuff, including food, housing and schools.  To me, you seem to choose the most stupid solution for the problem.  Your solution is very short-term, but has severe long-term consequences.  How short-sighted.

[BeElBeeBub]

Not all unoccupied dwellings can be occupied, so they are irrelevant.

This does not dominate prices any more than supply vs demand, so you are attempting to shift the point away from that.To describe this as a failing is nonsense.  It's like saying someone hit you with a hammer, but it's your fault for having a flattened head because you failed to avoid the hammer.  Without mass immigration, there is no need to keep building, and no failing.

The UK has consistently missed it's own housebuilding targets for years.  It's not impossible to hit them, but various issues with planning, incentives, finance, labour shortages etc come together to mean we miss every year. And by consistently missing, we fall further behind.

Mind you, we might be due a steady stream of dwellings coming on the market in the next few decades as the baby boomers die out.

[papasmurf]

What do you think the 1m or so immigrants who come to the UK for longer than 12 months each year are doing? Sitting in cupboards?

I would like to know where they are living and where they are working. 

[BeElBeeBub]

But your argument shifted to saying we need immigration, so stop being disingenuous.

It's two different arguments.  Again, stop conflating the reduction of immigration with whether we need immigration.  As I said, you can reduce immigration, and still have some that we may need.  I have not said we don't need immigration, so yes you are disingenuously shifting the point from what I said about reducing it.  Reducing it does not mean having zero immigration.  So if you are ready to stop being so disingenuous, explain why we cannot realistically reduce immigration.

It's the same argument.....

"It's impossible to stop breathing"

"Of course it's possible to stop breathing, all you have to do is put a plastic bag on your head"

"Well ok it is possible to hold your breath but it would result in serious harm so nobody would do it"

"Oh you're shifting your argument - first you say we can't stop breathing, now you say we need oxygen, which is it?"

Current long term immigration is running in the 500k region. Cutting it to below 100k (as Tories have said) or to "tens of thousands" as some others have is not realistic.

What do you think the 1m or so immigrants who come to the UK for longer than 12 months each year are doing? Sitting in cupboards?