More Boris lockdown breaches

[Nick]

If a person was hit by a bus the death cerficate might go something like

1a) disease or condition leading directly to death: Intraperitoneal haemorrhage
1b) disease or condition, if any, leading directly to (1a): Ruptured liver
1c) disease or condition, if any, leading directly to (1a): Crush injuries due to RTA
2) Other significant conditions Contributing to death but not related to the disease or condition causing it: Covid may go here

The ONS would use 1C as the cause of death - being hit by a bus being a health condition.

It doesn't matter the order or severity, if Covid was mentioned it was counted in the official Covid death count. That is the crux of the matter. 

[patman post]

Yeah, I just wanted a simple list of conditions, but you provide something else.  Can you provide any reference to "ruptured liver" as being a condition?  That's the only one you claim is a condition so far.

Maybe the ruptured liver would not have proved fatal has Covid not have been present...

[Scott777]

A ruptured liver is generally considered a medical condition. Emergency treatment is required
Likewise, crush injuries to the torso would require hospital treatment and and extended recovery period.

Being hit by a bus could easily result in the above conditions and result in death and would be recorded, statistically speaking, as a death caused by traffic accident.

Similarly someone dying of a stroke after 2.weeks in intensive care would generally be listed as dying of (the source incident that ultimately led to death) whatever put them in ICU

If it was a car accident, RTA would be cause of death
If it was falling off a roof, that would be cause of death
If it was covid then the cause of death would be covid.

Yeah, I just wanted a simple list of conditions, but you provide something else.  Can you provide any reference to "ruptured liver" as being a condition?  That's the only one you claim is a condition so far.

[BeElBeeBub]

And to answer the question which I asked:  which of these are medical conditions?  Just list them, if you are able.

A ruptured liver is generally considered a medical condition. Emergency treatment is required
Likewise, crush injuries to the torso would require hospital treatment and and extended recovery period.

Being hit by a bus could easily result in the above conditions and result in death and would be recorded, statistically speaking, as a death caused by traffic accident.

Similarly someone dying of a stroke after 2.weeks in intensive care would generally be listed as dying of (the source incident that ultimately led to death) whatever put them in ICU

If it was a car accident, RTA would be cause of death
If it was falling off a roof, that would be cause of death
If it was covid then the cause of death would be covid.

[Scott777]

If a person was hit by a bus the death cerficate might go something like

1a) disease or condition leading directly to death: Intraperitoneal haemorrhage
1b) disease or condition, if any, leading directly to (1a): Ruptured liver
1c) disease or condition, if any, leading directly to (1a): Crush injuries due to RTA
2) Other significant conditions Contributing to death but not related to the disease or condition causing it: Covid may go here

The ONS would use 1C as the cause of death - being hit by a bus being a health condition.

And to answer the question which I asked:  which of these are medical conditions?  Just list them, if you are able.

[BeElBeeBub]

"When we say that a death was 'due to' COVID-19, we mean that COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death, because it was either the only health condition mentioned on the death certificate."  Tell me clever clogs, if a person is hit by a bus, and they had a positive Covid test, which conditions go on the death certificate?

If a person was hit by a bus the death cerficate might go something like

1a) disease or condition leading directly to death: Intraperitoneal haemorrhage 
1b) disease or condition, if any, leading directly to (1a): Ruptured liver
1c) disease or condition, if any, leading directly to (1a): Crush injuries due to RTA
 2) Other significant conditions Contributing to death but not related to the disease or condition causing it: Covid may go here 

The ONS would use 1C as the cause of death - being hit by a bus being a health condition.

[patman post]

Hopefully, the Covid inquiry being conducted by Baroness Hallett will eventually set out what did and didn't happen, what should and shouldn't have happened and say which people and organisations were responsible.

With luck, this inquiry will finally illustrate what a disaster Johnson was as a PM...

[Scott777]

The ONS "due to covid" ONLY counts the former. That is people whose cause of death included covid. 

"When we say that a death was 'due to' COVID-19, we mean that COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death, because it was either the only health condition mentioned on the death certificate."  Tell me clever clogs, if a person is hit by a bus, and they had a positive Covid test, which conditions go on the death certificate?

[BeElBeeBub]

Vallance was talking about Covid on death certificates (from which ONS figures were taken), but they don't mean there was a Covid infection, therefore they could not have died from it.  You just ignored that fact.  Stop gaslighting.

FFS, I already pointed you to the ONS explanation that Covid can be "on the death certificate" in two possible ways.

As a cause of death (eg respiratory failure caused by COVID infection) or as an ancillary note (eg casue of death was decapitation, person had cancer and tested positive for COVID 40 days prior)


The ONS "due to covid" ONLY counts the former. That is people whose cause of death included covid. 

Nobody who had covid as an underlying cause of death "didn't have covid".l it was the underlying cause of death.

Are there people out there who didn't die of COVID, but had the word covid somewhere on their death certificate? Yes, of course there were but none of those people are counted by the ONS.

The only category of people where there might be a question mark would be people who died before testing capacity was high. Some of these people were assumed to be covid because they had symptoms of COVID and died in a manner typical of COVID. 

To affect the figures in any significant way, large numbers of people would have to die in a way that was consistent with COVID, during a COVID outbreak, *but* not actually have covid.  Which means there was a mysterious, unidentified, disease that kills like COVID but isn't COVID. Is that what you are implying?

Put  simply the ONS are good at their job. They spend their career thinking about how to collect, sort and count statistics.

They are, frankly, much better at it than you (or I). They are better at it than any of the crackpot idiot COVID deniers.

I assume, you don't trust any of the other death statics out out? Deaths due to heart disease?  How do you trust them nit to screw that up? How about road accidents? Murder?  So you even believe they can count the actual number of deaths? Or are the thousands of deaths not registered? Or maybe deaths registered for people who never died?

[Scott777]

your supposed definitive 'they could not have died from it' cannot be supported by a supposition that ' they don't mean there was a Covid infection'

Not quite what I was saying.  If Covid on death certificates DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean they had an infection (prior to death), therefore it does not necessarily mean they died from Covid, therefore the ONS figures do not necessarily represent deaths involving Covid.  Therefore, The ONS figures known as Covid deaths CANNOT tell you anything about actual deaths caused by Covid. Feel free to say which part is not correct.  Be precise.

[Unlucky4Sum]

For those that don't want to be made fools of for posting shite about Covid best they have a browse of this link from the serious people:
 
FullFact Covid analyses

Most of those Covid denial stories have been comprehensively shredded there 

[Unlucky4Sum]

And the fact that you cannot explain why it's illogical just shows you are a gaslighting troll.

Oh dear you really are in a red mist mood today Scotty

To anyone with an IQ in at least double digits it would have been obvious once I highlighted that your supposed definitive 'they could not have died from it' cannot be supported by a supposition that ' they don't mean there was a Covid infection'

Put simply doubt is never disproof it is at most evidence that there isn't full proof.

[Scott777]

And the prize for the most illogical piece of horseshit today goes to Scotty ^

And the fact that you cannot explain why it's illogical just shows you are a gaslighting troll.

[Scott777]

You're the one positioning a possibility as a supposed fact and then accuse others of talking 'horseshit'

A nonsense statement ^^.  It can be a fact AND a possibility.  I.e., it's a fact that if you take the injection, there's a possibility it will weaken your immune system.  Attempting to separate these things is just you gaslighting and denying that you are wrong, and the EMA said so.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Vallance was talking about Covid on death certificates (from which ONS figures were taken), but they don't mean there was a Covid infection, therefore they could not have died from it.  You just ignored that fact.  Stop gaslighting.

And the prize for the most illogical piece of horseshit today goes to Scotty ^