Good News!

[Nick]

Recently, I saw an in-house report on potential alternative battery technologies for EVs that listed five front runners:

Graphene-based
Organo-silicon electrolyte
Sodium sulphur
Sodium ion
Zinc-manganese dioxide

Currently they all have their drawbacks, but the rapid development of a few working prototypes, suggests particular qualities some show like short charging times, low hydrogen production, and ready availability of component materials.

The suggestion is that it's likely that the earlier developments are likely to be of heavier types and will be more suitable for stationary applications and heavy duty EV like goods trucks and buses. But even they ease the demand on lithium, and lithium supply — along with safety — is a principal driver in work on alternative battery technologies...

Graphene charges 60 times faster, is lighter, more powerful, more stable, but you can't tell the old dinosaurs stuck in the dark ages. 

[papasmurf]

So does Lithium as do all the group 1 elements above Hydrogen

I only had easy(ish) access to Sodium at Grammar school. Other than that the old man who owned a proper chemists, that actually sold chemicals  in a small town near where I used to live, never questioned the chemicals I used to buy when I was nine years old and onwards (It would never happen now.)

[papasmurf]

The suggestion is that it's likely that the earlier developments are likely to be of heavier types and will be more suitable for stationary applications and heavy duty EV like goods trucks and buses. But even they ease the demand on lithium, and lithium supply — along with safety — is a principle driver in work on alternative battery technologies...

Frankly Lithium batteries are scary when it come to being a fire hazard. (I would not want to be in the fire brigade.) Some of the other alternatives would be like driving around sat on a large incendiary bomb.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Quite, not a solution yet. Also sodium is tricky stuff. (I used to have great fun with it in the science laboratory at Grammar school.)

Sodium is a FLAMMABLE SOLID which will ignite spontaneously in AIR or MOIST AIR and reacts violently with WATER or STEAM to produce flammable and explosive Hydrogen gas. Use dry chemicals appropriate for extinguishing metal fires such as graphite, soda ash or powdered sodium chloride.

To prevent sodium metal to react readily with air or water, the metal is kept under paraffin oil or any other similar oil substances.

So does Lithium as do all the group 1 elements above Hydrogen

[patman post]

Nick you may not have mentioned sodium, it is mentioned in the plans for Tata/JLR battery factories.
80000 tonnes of Lithium will be needed per annum for JLR batteries. What other type of battery you assume will be used could you please tell.

Recently, I saw an in-house report on potential alternative battery technologies for EVs that listed five front runners:

Graphene-based
Organo-silicon electrolyte
Sodium sulphur
Sodium ion
Zinc-manganese dioxide

Currently they all have their drawbacks, but the rapid development of a few working prototypes, suggests particular qualities some show like short charging times, low hydrogen production, and ready availability of component materials.

The suggestion is that it's likely that the earlier developments are likely to be of heavier types and will be more suitable for stationary applications and heavy duty EV like goods trucks and buses. But even they ease the demand on lithium, and lithium supply — along with safety — is a principal driver in work on alternative battery technologies...

[papasmurf]

Sodium at over 3 times the atomic mass of Lithium may be cheap but it leads to much heavier batteries and also struggles with durability.  It really isn't a solution for cars. 

Quite, not a solution yet. Also sodium is tricky stuff. (I used to have great fun with it in the science laboratory at Grammar school.)

Sodium is a FLAMMABLE SOLID which will ignite spontaneously in AIR or MOIST AIR and reacts violently with WATER or STEAM to produce flammable and explosive Hydrogen gas. Use dry chemicals appropriate for extinguishing metal fires such as graphite, soda ash or powdered sodium chloride.

To prevent sodium metal to react readily with air or water, the metal is kept under paraffin oil or any other similar oil substances.

[Unlucky4Sum]

I do t think that's quite true.
BYD and CATL .have both announced production this year and cars fitted with them on market this year

Of course, it's always possible there will be some hiccup but it looks like Sodium batteries may be arriving imminently.
*If* they fulfil their promise it's likely new battery plants will be springing up pretty fast given they get around the supply constraints of Lithium.

I imagine anyone who is thinking about building a battery plant is looking very hard at Sodium. Nobody wants to dump a.few billion into a betamax factory as VHS is launched.

Sodium at over 3 times the atomic mass of Lithium may be cheap but it leads to much heavier batteries and also struggles with durability.  It really isn't a solution for cars.  

[Nick]

Nick you may not have mentioned sodium, it is mentioned in the plans for Tata/JLR battery factories.
80000 tonnes of Lithium will be needed per annum for JLR batteries. What other type of battery you assume will be used could you please tell.

No, it's commercial IP. 

[papasmurf]

I never mentioned Sodium, and no my Automation Business doesn't rely on Tata/JLR. Do keep up old man.

Nick you may not have mentioned sodium, it is mentioned in the plans for Tata/JLR battery factories.
80000 tonnes of Lithium will be needed per annum for JLR batteries. What other type of battery you assume will be used could you please tell.

[Nick]

Nick, what are you on about, currently it is going to have to be Lithium, mass production of Sodium based batteries is some years away.  (You are so out of touch it is scary as it appears from what you have written your livelihood depends on Tata/JLR.)

I never mentioned Sodium, and no my Automation Business doesn't rely on Tata/JLR. Do keep up old man. 

[BeElBeeBub]

Nick, what are you on about, currently it is going to have to be Lithium, mass production of Sodium based batteries is some years away.  (You are so out of touch it is scary as it appears from what you have written your livelihood depends on Tata/JLR.)

I do t think that's quite true.
BYD and CATL .have both announced production this year and cars fitted with them on market this year 

Of course, it's always possible there will be some hiccup but it looks like Sodium batteries may be arriving imminently.
*If* they fulfil their promise it's likely new battery plants will be springing up pretty fast given they get around the supply constraints of Lithium.

I imagine anyone who is thinking about building a battery plant is looking very hard at Sodium. Nobody wants to dump a.few billion into a betamax factory as VHS is launched.

[papasmurf]

Oh, cause that's what I said, was it?

No, it is what the references about the new Tata/JLR battery factories state.

[Nick]

Nick  frankly you are spouting bollocks.  Nickel manganese cobalt is just the cathode in the latest generation of lithium battery.

Oh, cause that's what I said, was it?

[papasmurf]

I know what they are going to be using, and it isn't Lithium. You think you know everything, have you not had the memo? I guess you'll have to wait until the industry announces it then.

Nick  frankly you are spouting bollocks.  Nickel manganese cobalt is just the cathode in the latest generation of lithium battery.

[Unlucky4Sum]

I know what they are going to be using, and it isn't Lithium. You think you know everything, have you not had the memo? I guess you'll have to wait until the industry announces it then.

Ah so it is this then