Cluster bombs

[papasmurf]

Putin has been told by China there will be serious consequences if he even attempts to use nuclear, even he is not that stupid. 

Are you sure? 

[Nick]

Really? With Putin as mad as a sackful of cats, I would not want to guarantee that.

Putin has been told by China there will be serious consequences if he even attempts to use nuclear, even he is not that stupid.  

[papasmurf]

You're missing the point Scott, if we gave Ukraine a succession date Russia would be out of Ukraine as fast as they could. 

Really? With Putin as mad as a sackful of cats, I would not want to guarantee that.

[Nick]

The problem is, if they join NATO, it puts us officially at war.  I think NATO prefers to keep provoking both Ukraine and Russia, making money from arms, and then walk away.  NATO membership is a carrot on a stick.

You're missing the point Scott, if we gave Ukraine a succession date Russia would be out of Ukraine as fast as they could. We know and they know their army is not worth a crap and would last less than a week against NATO. Putin would rather be humiliated by withdrawal rather than total annihilation. 

[Scott777]

It would be interesting if NATO stated that Ukraine would enter NATO on a specific date. I'm fairly sure Russia would withdraw at a rate of knots, if they didn't, they would be shown what a 3'day special operation would look like.

The problem is, if they join NATO, it puts us officially at war.  I think NATO prefers to keep provoking both Ukraine and Russia, making money from arms, and then walk away.  NATO membership is a carrot on a stick.

[Scott777]

Ukraine's chances.of joining NATO were zero before 2022.

It's only on the table directly because of his actions.

You are probably correct.  But Putin's actions are directly because of NATO and the EU trying to expand.  NATO has been in Ukraine since at least 2014.  Therefore the increased chance of joining NATO is because of NATO / EU plans to expand and NATO meddling in Ukraine.  Anyway, I'm not sure NATO will succeed in expanding into Ukraine (officially).  You don't actually know that's on the table.

Likewise "Ukraine are doomed to lose this war" - they've been saying that since the start of the 3 day special operation.  Any yet here we are, 500 days later with Russia steadily losing ground.

Likewise, the other way round.  Ukraine was supposed to win ages ago.  As I said, the cluster bombs are because Ukraine is running out of options, including ammo, and getting desperate. 

[Nick]

Perfect Russian talking points. Straight from the Kremlin. And all complete and utter bollocks.

Ukraine's chances.of joining NATO were zero before 2022.

It's only on the table directly because of his actions.

And even then, the NATO members and leadership are dragging their feet.

Likewise "Ukraine are doomed to lose this war" - they've been saying that since the start of the 3 day special operation.  Any yet here we are, 500 days later with Russia steadily losing ground.

It would be interesting if NATO stated that Ukraine would enter NATO on a specific date. I'm fairly sure Russia would withdraw at a rate of knots, if they didn't, they would be shown what a 3'day special operation would look like. 

[BeElBeeBub]

Personally, we shouldn't have anything to do with the Putin Vs Zelensky war, and people should not start complaining until they have done their research into the origin of the war, which was not in 2022.  But it is more interesting to note that Biden only wants the help the clusterfuck, I mean, with cluster bombs, because Zelensky is running out of ammo.  Ukraine was doomed to lose this war, and it's all been about money for the industrial military complex, and NATO / EU expansion.

Perfect Russian talking points. Straight from the Kremlin. And all complete and utter bollocks.

Ukraine's chances.of joining NATO were zero before 2022.

It's only on the table directly because of his actions.

And even then, the NATO members and leadership are dragging their feet.

Likewise "Ukraine are doomed to lose this war" - they've been saying that since the start of the 3 day special operation.  Any yet here we are, 500 days later with Russia steadily losing ground.

[papasmurf]

The 18th C would be more accurate

When it comes to that general area, probably over 1000 years

[Streetwalker]

Quite 2014.

The 18th C would be more accurate 

[papasmurf]

 people should not start complaining until they have done their research into the origin of the war, which was not in 2022. 

Quite 2014.

[Scott777]

Rishi Sunak says the UK discourages use of cluster bombs in Ukraine - BBC News

More than discourage the use of these banned weapons should the UK be making stronger protests

Its not as if we along with many others are not giving Ukraine up to date weaponary the Americans are now supplying cluster bombs that are banned in almost every other country . The excuse that Russia use them isn't really good enough , Russia have been known to act in all sorts of illegal ways , does that mean we give the Ukraine the means to follow suit ?

Personally, we shouldn't have anything to do with the Putin Vs Zelensky war, and people should not start complaining until they have done their research into the origin of the war, which was not in 2022.  But it is more interesting to note that Biden only wants the help the clusterfuck, I mean, with cluster bombs, because Zelensky is running out of ammo.  Ukraine was doomed to lose this war, and it's all been about money for the industrial military complex, and NATO / EU expansion.

[BeElBeeBub]

In Ukraine where the fighting is happening I suspect that it is nearly impossible to differentiate.

most of the current fighting on the ground is happening in rural areas (fields and treelines) and not in built up areas with large civilian populations 

[BeElBeeBub]

Cluster bombs are extremely effective.  They were an important part of every military's arsenal through the cold war and until recently. They are a very effective weapon, especially in open terrain against trench networks and fortifications.


There are 4 classes of people they are a danger to.

• Enemy military
• Civilians near the enemy 
• Friendly Military
• Friendly Civilians (including post conflict population)

The danger to the enemy military is pretty much the point.

The danger to civilians in proximity of the enemy can be mitigated by not using the weapons when civilians are close by the target e.g. in cities.  Ukraine has given no indication it would do this and has strong incentives not to.

The danger to friendly military (eg troops moving to occupy the target area) is simply a calculated risk of war.

This leaves us with the final group. Civilians, especially post conflict.  This seems to be where the majority of opposition to CM comes from.

In general I would not support our military using CMs for this reason.

However the Ukraine situation is different for the following reasons:

1. Ukraine is choosing to use CMs on it's own territory to repel an occupying force.
2. The Russians have been using CMs extensively - the future threat to civilians is already in place. 

It should be noted that Russian CMs have a notoriously high dud rate (up to 40%) and are not fitted with any of the western features like auto destruct. Combined with the Russian's extensive use of minefields and anti personnel mines in particular this means huge swathes of Ukraine will already require years of extensive cleanup to be safe for civilians.  The additional risk posed by western supplied CMs is negligible. 

I would also ask the question: Who would do a better job or de-mining the battlefields of Ukraine when the war ends?  Russia or Ukraine? 

Do you believe de-mining Ukraine would be a priority for the Russian government and even if it was do you think they would do a competent job?

I would bet that a Ukrainian victory would result in fewer post conflict casualties than a Russian victory.

The route to lowest civilian deaths overall is a quick Ukrainian victory. Ideally this could be achieved by Russia unilaterally deciding to leave Ukraine.  In the absence of that occurring the west should provide the tools for Ukraine to prevail as quickly as possible. To that end, cluster munitions, long range weapons and air power (IMHO Gripen, but F16 will do nicely) should be provided asap.  With the exception of air power all the rest can be provided immediately.

[Streetwalker]

I am assuming these will be used in combat areas and not used in civilian areas.

Lets hope so