Cluster bombs

[Scott777]

The problem is cluster bombs are area denial weapons, no-one can control who goes into the area given how long unexploded cluster bombs can last.

My brother picked up one of these up during the Second World War in rural Buckinghamshire and took it home, luckily it turned out to be a dud:-

I don't disagree.  The point is, it doesn't matter whether it's Russia or Ukraine using them, they are not acceptable.

[BeElBeeBub]

Don't think we are giving any credence to anything Sleepy Joe sleep 💤 says are we?

He may not be in his prime but he's still got his shit together more than the unstable Trump who coined that rather poor playground insult!

[Nick]

You asked:My answer is: Yes. I deny the US (and Biden in particular) said using cluster bombs would be a crime for Russia.

I have not seen any evidence that was the US position. The closest I found was the question which specifically mentioned civilians, to which the reply was "that could potentially be a war crime"

Have you any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence that Russians used CMs against civilians.  https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/EUR5056822022ENGLISH.pdf

But either way, it's irrelevant.  Russia and her fan boys has zero moral high ground when it comes to consistency of position or whining about their enemy having the affront to deploy the same weapons that Russia has been using. 

There is almost nothing Russia can do about this apart from withdraw.

Ukraine's western backers wouldn't support Ukrainian forces using western weapons on Russian soil.  If Russian forces want to avoid western CMs (or HiMARS or Storm Shadow) all they have to do is travel back to Russia.

Don't think we are giving any credence to anything Sleepy Joe sleep 💤 says are we?

[BeElBeeBub]

You have misrepresented what was asked and said.  The question was not about using cluster bombs specifically against civilians.  Have you any evidence of any such reports of Russia targeting a civilian population with them?  Then the next question is about violence against civilians, because as we all know, civilians also get hurt, in military conflicts.  If the report had been about targeting civilians, why didn't the reporter say so?

You asked:

Are you denying the US (I think Biden) said using cluster bombs would be a crime for Russia?  (Not just civilians).

My answer is: Yes. I deny the US (and Biden in particular) said using cluster bombs would be a crime for Russia.

I have not seen any evidence that was the US position. The closest I found was the question which specifically mentioned civilians, to which the reply was "that could potentially be a war crime"

Have you any evidence?

There is plenty of evidence that Russians used CMs against civilians.  https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/EUR5056822022ENGLISH.pdf

But either way, it's irrelevant.  Russia and her fan boys has zero moral high ground when it comes to consistency of position or whining about their enemy having the affront to deploy the same weapons that Russia has been using.  

There is almost nothing Russia can do about this apart from withdraw.

Ukraine's western backers wouldn't support Ukrainian forces using western weapons on Russian soil.  If Russian forces want to avoid western CMs (or HiMARS or Storm Shadow) all they have to do is travel back to Russia.

[BeElBeeBub]

So far so good.  And who violated the agreement first, and when?

Russia violated the agreement in 2014 by annexing large parts of Ukraine.

That would violate article 1, specifically the clause about "respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine"

It was fairly widely reported at the time.  Not sure how you missed it. I'm not sure how you feel qualified to discuss this topic seeing as you don't seem to know any of the history.

[BeElBeeBub]

Come off it Scott, either the Russians are targeting civilians or they are incompetent. Which is it?

come on Nick, the heroic Russians have developed advanced Nazi Targeting Munitions.  They only target Nazi's.  If a person is killed by one of these weapons they must have been a Nazi, or maybe a NATO mercenary.  Even if they were a 65 year old lady, a hospital or a supermarket.

[Nick]

You have misrepresented what was asked and said.  The question was not about using cluster bombs specifically against civilians.  Have you any evidence of any such reports of Russia targeting a civilian population with them?  Then the next question is about violence against civilians, because as we all know, civilians also get hurt, in military conflicts.  If the report had been about targeting civilians, why didn't the reporter say so?

Come off it Scott, either the Russians are targeting civilians or they are incompetent. Which is it?

[papasmurf]

All the more reason the reporter would have specified the use of such weapons to target civilians.

The problem is cluster bombs are area denial weapons, no-one can control who goes into the area given how long unexploded cluster bombs can last.

My brother picked up one of these up during the Second World War in rural Buckinghamshire and took it home, luckily it turned out to be a dud:- 

[Scott777]

 it's the manner in which weapons are employed that is more important than the weapon employed.

All the more reason the reporter would have specified the use of such weapons to target civilians.

[Scott777]

Obviously, I can't prove that every single person in the US *hasn't* said using cluster bombs would be a crime for Russia. You can't prove a negative.

But you could prove that Biden said it. Go find it.

The closest I could find was his press secretary's response to this question:

"There are reports of illegal cluster bombs and vacuum bombs being used by the Russians. If that's true, what is the next step of this administration? And is there a red line for how much violence will be tolerated against civilians in this manner that's illegal and potentially a war crime?"

To.which his press secretary replied:

"It is — it would be. I don't have any confirmation of that. We have seen the reports. If that were true, it would potentially be a war crime."

Note the question *specifically* called out the use of CMs against civilians which would be a war crime if used in manner targeting civilians.

Ukraine's proposed use of CMs (against active enemy combatants occupying Ukraine territory) is wildy different from Russia's use of CM as a terror weapon against civilian populations in an invasion.


Again, I come back to: what (besides whine) can Russia do about it? They have zero escalation routes because they have already escalated.  Remember when supplying M777 artillery was the red line? Or HiMARS? Or Storm Shadow? Or hitting the Kerch bridge?

You have misrepresented what was asked and said.  The question was not about using cluster bombs specifically against civilians.  Have you any evidence of any such reports of Russia targeting a civilian population with them?  Then the next question is about violence against civilians, because as we all know, civilians also get hurt, in military conflicts.  If the report had been about targeting civilians, why didn't the reporter say so?

[Scott777]

The name of the agreement was the Budapest Memorandum, signed by Russia and Ukraine (plus others) on 4th December 1994.
The text can be found here
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb

The relevent articles are:

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, The United States of America:
1. Reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus, Kazakhstan, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus, Kazakhstan.
2. Reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

So far so good.  And who violated the agreement first, and when?

[papasmurf]

A car battery and some jumper cables be a war crime if it is used to torture a prisoner.

A hand cranked generator is far more effective.

[BeElBeeBub]

Vacuum bombs, (thermobaric munitions,) are in common use. From a rocket propelled RPG7 round, (there are over 20 types of warhead for the RPG7 one of which is thermobaric.)  America has many types of thermobaric weapons including the GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast (MOAB ) bomb which is only one step down from an atomic bomb.

What is often missed in this debate about CMs is that it's the manner in which weapons are employed that is more important than the weapon employed.

A 9mm pistol round can be a war crime if it is used to execute a civilian.

A car battery and some jumper cables be a war crime if it is used to torture a prisoner.

A cluster bomb or thermobaric bomb can be absolutely fine if used against a column of advancing tanks.

The controversy about cluster munitions centres around 2 things

1) they have a very large area of effect. Unless the target is well away from any civilians using them will fall foul of the prohibition on indiscriminate weapons.
2) any duds that fail to detonate can pose a long term risk to civilians post conflict.

Russia has breached both 1 and 2 by using CMs in civilian areas and by using CMs with an extraordinarily high failure rate.

[Nick]

Neither do you.

That's why I haven't said what is going to happen, only what I would like to happen. 🙄 

[papasmurf]

"There are reports of illegal cluster bombs and vacuum bombs being used by the Russians. 

Vacuum bombs, (thermobaric munitions,) are in common use. From a rocket propelled RPG7 round, (there are over 20 types of warhead for the RPG7 one of which is thermobaric.)  America has many types of thermobaric weapons including the  GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast (MOAB ) bomb which is only one step down from an atomic bomb.