Cluster bombs

[BeElBeeBub]

And you can explain why loads of other countries are not protesting to join the EU, and starting revolutions?  There's plenty of poor countries. 

Apart from the fact lots are

• Ukraine
• Albania
• Montenegro
• North Macedonia
• Serbia
• Turkey
• Bosnia and Herzegovina
• Georgia
• Kosovo
• Moldova

There are plenty of other countries whose citizens would love the advantages of being an EU citizen but whose leadership hate the idea of having to implement troublesome things like humans rights, press freedom, rule of law etc 

As I said, people are willing to risk their lives to get to the EU.

It s not a stretch that a bunch of students would protest about having their chance to become EU citizens (rather than Russian).

[BeElBeeBub]

Oh right, so doing nothing is not neutral anymore.  In that case, the US took the side of Hitler for the first 2 years, despite Wikipedia saying about Pearl Harbor "The United States was a neutral country at the time."  🥴

Context is everything.

If a man is beating his ex, right in front of you, standing on the sidelines and doing nothing is tacitly siding with the husband.

"Please help!" She says

"Sorry love" you shrug, "I'm neutral. Neither for or against one side, so will do nothing whilst he punches you in the face for daring to think of leaving him. Besides you cut his fist on your teeth when he punched you so you're just as bad as him"

Let's not forget, the west was fairly neutral after Russia invaded Ukriane in 2014 (now you know the facts and timeline). And look how that went.

Imagine the west had done nothing in 2022. Handy sent ATGMs, trained Ukriane etc.

Let's say the special operation went to plan and Ukraine fell in 3days.

Do you honestly think Russia would have stopped there? Or would Moldova prepared to invade Russia necessitating Russia's premptive special operation to root out Nazis in Moldova?  Where next?

[papasmurf]

 There's plenty of poor countries. 

There are now plenty of poor people in Britain.

[Scott777]

And yet Scott finds it hard to believe people were pissed off when their leadership caved to Russian blackmail and reversed the path away from the EU and back towards the welcoming and in no way coercive arms of Russia.

And you can explain why loads of other countries are not protesting to join the EU, and starting revolutions?  There's plenty of poor countries.  

[Scott777]

In 2013 the Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to agree to the EU agreement.

As memory serves, I think this is false, so can you back up this claim?

Yanukovych even urged parliament to speed up the passage of laws to enable him to sign the agreement in 2013.

In mid 2013 Russia put economic pressure (which it had agreed not to) on Ukraine by restricting grain imports.

In late 2013 he changed his mind, reputedly saying it was due to russian "economic pressure and blackmail"

This then kicked off the protests.

And yes, I do believe ordinary Ukrainians were angry at having their future in the EU snatched away. People literally risk their lives crossing the med in a rubber dingy to get to the EU. Protesting against your president for abruptly U-turning and taking your chance away in exchange for a future in Russia? Totally believable.

Calling them protests is a strawman.  We are talking about violent revolution, in which many people on both sides died.  How do you know People crossing the med in dingies are not trying to get to the UK (not in the EU)?  You don't know they are risking their lives for the EU.  The revolution was a CIA coup, not angry EU-philes.

[Scott777]

And I do honestly believe Ukraine will abide by itcs pledge to use the CMs responsibility.

Oh, sure they will.  It's a war in which we are told they will fight to the end, BUT still be very responsible.  And killing people in Poland was very responsible.  That kind of responsibility means accidents or reckless use of CMs will never happen.  🤔

Ukraine has shit down countless a Russian missiles targeted at Ukraine. It is the nature of air defence that the thing you shoot down has to fall somwhere, often on you.  Are you arguing that shooting down incoming missiles is a war crime?

Nope.  Accidents happen.  Same with CMs.

The Ukrainian missile ( at the time all UKR air defence missiles were Russian made) that fell into Poland was identified as a S300 missile fired at an incoming Russian weapon targeting Ukraine energy infrastructure. Who is to blame for that one? The person trying to shoot down the missile aimed at them or the person who fired the.missile?
Again all these points are not neutral, they are pro kremlin  they are the exact points brought up on Russian nightly TV.

I don't watch any Russian media whatsoever.  It is common sense that shit happens.  But somehow, you think CMs will be impervious to accidents and never used recklessly.

[Scott777]

You're not neutral tho.

And "we should keep out of it" is exactly the Russian position because it will give Russia exactly what it wants.

America First said exactly the same thing in WW2. I think we could (I hope we could) both agree they were on the wrong side of history.

Oh right, so doing nothing is not neutral anymore.  In that case, the US took the side of Hitler for the first 2 years, despite Wikipedia saying about Pearl Harbor "The United States was a neutral country at the time."  🥴

[BeElBeeBub]

There are no freedoms in Russia, whether that be in home life or work life. A mid level manager earns $800 per month take home, shopping is the same prices as the west, except fuel. That affords them precisely zero freedom, they either think how they are told or they disappear. They are worse off now than when full communism was in place.

And yet Scott finds it hard to believe people were pissed off when their leadership caved to Russian blackmail and reversed the path away from the EU and back towards the welcoming and in no way coercive arms of Russia.

[Nick]

Let's look at the 2014 revolution in context.

Closer ties with the west and EU had been Ukraine policy as.far back as the mid 00's

The Ukrainian president, Yanukovych, even said in 2010 "Ukraine's integration with the EU remains our strategic aim".

In 2013 the Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to agree to the EU agreement.

Yanukovych even urged parliament to speed up the passage of laws to enable him to sign the agreement in 2013.

In mid 2013 Russia put economic pressure (which it had agreed not to) on Ukraine by restricting grain imports.

In late 2013 he changed his mind, reputedly saying it was due to russian "economic pressure and blackmail"

This then kicked off the protests.

And yes, I do believe ordinary Ukrainians were angry at having their future in the EU snatched away. People literally risk their lives crossing the med in a rubber dingy to get to the EU. Protesting against your president for abruptly U-turning and taking your chance away in exchange for a future in Russia? Totally believable.

Who would you rather have the freedom to live and work? France, Germany, UK? Or Russia?

There are no freedoms in Russia, whether that be in home life or work life. A mid level manager earns $800 per month take home, shopping is the same prices as the west, except fuel. That affords them precisely zero freedom, they either think how they are told or they disappear. They are worse off now than when full communism was in place. 

[BeElBeeBub]

In February 2014 (before your events), was the Maidan Revolution.  So, Ukraine was not "choosing" to face Europe.  The revolution was instigated by the CIA.  (Or did you honestly think ordinary citizens were so angry at not being part of the EU, they were prepared to die?  🤣)  Therefore, the US violated the Budapest Memorandum.  And even if you don't believe it was the CIA, it was definitely a revolution.  I'm sure that would nullify the agreement, as I don't think it would automatically carry over to a newly installed government.

Let's look at the 2014 revolution in context.

Closer ties with the west and EU had been Ukraine policy as.far back as the mid 00's

The Ukrainian president, Yanukovych, even said in 2010 "Ukraine's integration with the EU remains our strategic aim".

In 2013 the Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to agree to the EU agreement.

Yanukovych even urged parliament to speed up the passage of laws to enable him to sign the agreement in 2013.

In mid 2013 Russia put economic pressure (which it had agreed not to) on Ukraine by restricting grain imports.

In late 2013 he changed his mind, reputedly saying it was due to russian "economic pressure and blackmail"

This then kicked off the protests.

And yes, I do believe ordinary Ukrainians were angry at having their future in the EU snatched away. People literally risk their lives crossing the med in a rubber dingy to get to the EU. Protesting against your president for abruptly U-turning and taking your chance away in exchange for a future in Russia? Totally believable.

Who would you rather have the freedom to live and work? France, Germany, UK? Or Russia?

[BeElBeeBub]

Agreement is not relevant when discussing whether CMs are a crime.  You said CMs in civilian areas is a crime.  Do you honestly think Ukraine would use them avoiding civilian areas?  Just remind me, which country shot at a Russian missile, causing it to hit a civilian building instead of the target?  And which country fired a Russian-made missile which landed in Poland killing 2 people?

Yes, using CMs in areas where civilians are likely to be, like a city center, rather than in an open field is likely to be a war crime.
And I do honestly believe Ukraine will abide by itcs pledge to use the CMs responsibility. They know they are critically dependent on Western support. Western support that would vanish pretty quickly if Ukraine started to break it's pledges 

I'll remind you that Ukraine has had western weapons capable of striking deep into Russia since mid 2022 and has so far stuck to it's pledges not to.

Ukraine has shit down countless a Russian missiles targeted at Ukraine. It is the nature of air defence that the thing you shoot down has to fall somwhere, often on you.  Are you arguing that shooting down incoming missiles is a war crime?

The Ukrainian missile ( at the time all UKR air defence missiles were Russian made) that fell into Poland was identified as a S300 missile fired at an incoming Russian weapon targeting Ukraine energy infrastructure. Who is to blame for that one? The person trying to shoot down the missile aimed at them or the person who fired the.missile?
Again all these points are not neutral, they are pro kremlin  they are the exact points brought up on Russian nightly TV.

[BeElBeeBub]

Not at all.  The problem with your "either with us or against us" attitude is that you don't like anyone in a neutral position.  Have I ever suggested we should fund or arm Russia?  My position is we should keep out of it.  End of story.

You're not neutral tho.

Your talking points match up with the Kremlin position. are you going to argue MH117 was actually shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet trying to assassinate Putin?

And "we should keep out of it" is exactly the Russian position because it will give Russia exactly what it wants.

America First said exactly the same thing in WW2. I think we could (I hope we could) both agree they were on the wrong side of history.

[Scott777]

I think Scott is showing his Putin famboi colours.

Not at all.  The problem with your "either with us or against us" attitude is that you don't like anyone in a neutral position.  Have I ever suggested we should fund or arm Russia?  My position is we should keep out of it.  End of story.

[Scott777]

So you gripe is basically that a country who has not agreed to ban CMs is supplying CMs to country who has not agreed to ban CMs for use against an invading army who has already used CMs (in ways that are potentially a war crime)

Agreement is not relevant when discussing whether CMs are a crime.  You said CMs in civilian areas is a crime.  Do you honestly think Ukraine would use them avoiding civilian areas?  Just remind me, which country shot at a Russian missile, causing it to hit a civilian building instead of the target?  And which country fired a Russian-made missile which landed in Poland killing 2 people?

[Scott777]

Likewise Russian forces were operating in eastern Ukraine during the late spring of 2014.  Russian tanks crossed the border in June and columns of armoured vehicles were operating in Eastern Ukraine in August.

These are facts.

What I believe happened is Russia, angry that Ukraine was choosing to face Europe and move out of it's sphere of influence,

In February 2014 (before your events), was the Maidan Revolution.  So, Ukraine was not "choosing" to face Europe.  The revolution was instigated by the CIA.  (Or did you honestly think ordinary citizens were so angry at not being part of the EU, they were prepared to die?  🤣)  Therefore, the US violated the Budapest Memorandum.  And even if you don't believe it was the CIA, it was definitely a revolution.  I'm sure that would nullify the agreement, as I don't think it would automatically carry over to a newly installed government.