Cluster bombs

[Scott777]

The incarceration of Tymoshenko was a stumbling block in the EU talks.

The EU (and many in the west) regarded her prosecution as politically motivated.

This makes the argument about a western plotted revolution even more ridiculous.

If the weat was so hell bent on bringing Ukraine into it's orbit, what was itnouttijg roadblocks in the part to association?

If the protests were part of a CIA coup, why did the west push an agreement that kept Yanukovych as president? He fled the country if his own accord the day *after* the agreement between the government and opposition was signed. A deal that kept him in post.  He wasn't deposed, he quit.

Then after this "coup" the parliament continued on, held presidential elections and appointed a new president to replace the one who quit.

So you agree, EU talks were having problems, BEFORE the revolution.  So you think protesters were so desperate to hurry up the negotiations, they decided to use violence?  They couldn't wait?  OR the US wanted regime change, and they said who they wanted in charge, BEFORE the revolution.  Obviously they hoped Yanukovych would do exactly what they wanted, but he didn't.  We KNOW they decided Yanukovych was not good enough, as they admitted it.  You know, the situation can change, as can plans.

[papasmurf]

Because it's pretty fucking hard to get to Romania by boat from North Africa.

I was under the impression that Romanians are trying to flock to Britain, but they have problems getting a horse and cart on a small boat to cross the Channel.

[BeElBeeBub]

No, you miss the point.  If they just want to be in the EU so badly, why do they not flock to Romania?  It's much closer than Western Europe.

Because it's pretty fucking hard to get to Romania by boat from North Africa.

[BeElBeeBub]

Fair enough, I was recalling some issue with the agreement.  However:

"On 21 November 2013, the Verkhovna Rada failed to pass any of the six motions on allowing the former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko to receive medical treatment abroad, which was an EU demand for signing the association agreement.

So the parliament was in fact in conflict with the EU requirements, and it could not be agreed.  Then:

"The same day a Ukrainian government decree suspended preparations for signing of the association agreement".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement

The incarceration of Tymoshenko was a stumbling block in the EU talks.

The EU (and many in the west) regarded her prosecution as politically motivated.

This makes the argument about a western plotted revolution even more ridiculous.

If the weat was so hell bent on bringing Ukraine into it's orbit, what was itnouttijg roadblocks in the part to association?

If the protests were part of a CIA coup, why did the west push an agreement that kept Yanukovych as president? He fled the country if his own accord the day *after* the agreement between the government and opposition was signed. A deal that kept him in post.  He wasn't deposed, he quit.

Then after this "coup" the parliament continued on, held presidential elections and appointed a new president to replace the one who quit.

[Scott777]

You miss the point.

Part of the association agreement would have meant easier visa access for Ukrainians to the EU, and of course eventual membership would give them full freedom of movement.  That is certainly something young Ukrainians valued.

No, you miss the point.  If they just want to be in the EU so badly, why do they not flock to Romania?  It's much closer than Western Europe.

[Scott777]

No hypocrisy, I wouldn't call the US (as a whole) "Hitler fanboys" because,*as a whole* it wasn't. 

However there was a minority in America who were out and out "Hitler Fanboys" and they were calling for neutrality.

Just like nobody could describe the UK as being on Russia's side in this war, yet there are some in the UK who are on Russia's side - and pretty much every single one of them will be calling for "neutrality".

Yes, hypocrisy.  The US did nothing for 1.5 years, before deciding to arm the allies.  So in your own logic, they were NOT neutral because they allowed Hitler to invade Europe, and so they were Hitler fanboys for that long.

[Scott777]

That's not what a strawman is......
Again your memory seems somewhat faulty

The intial protests were a few thousand people ad hoc gathering in the square.

Things only turned violent a.week or so later when the protests were violently broken up by riot police.

The escalation of violence between police and protesters continued over the new year. Over 100 protesters were killed by gunfire.

In late Feb 2014 Yanukovych and opposition leaders signed an agreement to end the violence.  This agreement was mediated by representatives from Europe and Russia. Amongst the stipulations was that Yanukovych remain as president. This stipulation was supported by the US - which is pretty weird if the whole affair was a.CIA plot to remove him.

Either way he fled the next day and then surfaced in Russia.

Well that's one version of events.  Another one is given in the documentary Ukraine on Fire.  Victoria Nuland was exposed as saying she wanted Yatsenyuk to govern Ukraine, and surprise surprise, he replaced Yanukovych after the revolution.  That was regime change.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/02/27/washingtons-man-yatsenyuk-setting-ukraine-up-for-ruin/

[BeElBeeBub]

Oh sure they are.  They're flocking to Romania and staying.  Oh hang on, I forgot, they carry on through Europe to richer countries.  That's odd.  Isn't the EU good enough for them in Romania?  🤣

You miss the point. 

Part of the association agreement would have meant easier visa access for Ukrainians to the EU, and of course eventual membership would give them full freedom of movement.  That is certainly something young Ukrainians valued.

[BeElBeeBub]

Your "context" failed to explain why the US was a different case.  Just as you claim Russia would go further without our intervention, we know the Nazis did go further.  So why are you not calling the US "Hitler fanboys"?  There is your glaring hypocrisy.

No hypocrisy, I wouldn't call the US (as a whole) "Hitler fanboys" because,*as a whole* it wasn't.  

However there was a minority in America who were out and out "Hitler Fanboys" and they were calling for neutrality.

Just like nobody could describe the UK as being on Russia's side in this war, yet there are some in the UK who are on Russia's side - and pretty much every single one of them will be calling for "neutrality".

[Scott777]

Your memory is incorrect.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6963

Feb 22 2013
For reference there are 450 MPs in total. So at least 70% (a supermajority) of MPs voted for moving the EU association forward.

Fair enough, I was recalling some issue with the agreement.  However:

"On 21 November 2013, the Verkhovna Rada failed to pass any of the six motions on allowing the former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko to receive medical treatment abroad, which was an EU demand for signing the association agreement.

So the parliament was in fact in conflict with the EU requirements, and it could not be agreed.  Then:

"The same day a Ukrainian government decree suspended preparations for signing of the association agreement".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement

[Scott777]

As I said, people are willing to risk their lives to get to the EU.

Oh sure they are.  They're flocking to Romania and staying.  Oh hang on, I forgot, they carry on through Europe to richer countries.  That's odd.  Isn't the EU good enough for them in Romania?  🤣

[Scott777]

Context is everything.

If a man is beating his ex, right in front of you, standing on the sidelines and doing nothing is tacitly siding with the husband.

"Please help!" She says

"Sorry love" you shrug, "I'm neutral. Neither for or against one side, so will do nothing whilst he punches you in the face for daring to think of leaving him. Besides you cut his fist on your teeth when he punched you so you're just as bad as him"

Let's not forget, the west was fairly neutral after Russia invaded Ukriane in 2014 (now you know the facts and timeline). And look how that went.

Imagine the west had done nothing in 2022. Handy sent ATGMs, trained Ukriane etc.

Let's say the special operation went to plan and Ukraine fell in 3days.

Do you honestly think Russia would have stopped there? Or would Moldova prepared to invade Russia necessitating Russia's premptive special operation to root out Nazis in Moldova?  Where next?

Your "context" failed to explain why the US was a different case.  Just as you claim Russia would go further without our intervention, we know the Nazis did go further.  So why are you not calling the US "Hitler fanboys"?  There is your glaring hypocrisy.

[BeElBeeBub]

Oh, sure they will.  It's a war in which we are told they will fight to the end, BUT still be very responsible.  And killing people in Poland was very responsible.  That kind of responsibility means accidents or reckless use of CMs will never happen.  🤔
Nope.  Accidents happen.  Same with CMs.

I don't watch any Russian media whatsoever.  It is common sense that shit happens.  But somehow, you think CMs will be impervious to accidents and never used recklessly.

I expect accidents will happen..as you say it is the nature of war.

Sometimes air defence missiles malfunction. So you only use them when the risk of that malfunction is lower than the risk from letting the target pass unhindered. The root cause of those deaths in Poland (according to Poland) is the Russian decision to fire a missile at Ukraine.

But I expect Ukraine to act responsibly for two reasons.

1) they have acted responsibly so far. You can see in every effort they make, they are trying to minimise harms. They equip their soldiers with body armour. They evacuate the wounded. They rotate troops out from the front.  Contrast with Russia whose doctrine is life is cheap. Their troops are lightly armoured if at all. Their battfield medicine is poor, evacuation and rotation almost non-existant. They use in accurate weapons for strikes near civilans.

2) Ukraine knows the western support it relies on will evaporate if it use CMs irresponsibility.  I guarantee any commander who does so will be draged over the coals for doing so. No battlefield advantage will be big enough to risk Ukraine's relationship with it's supporters.

Of course Russia will do all it can to claim Ukraine is targeting orphanages, convents and dog homes with cluster munitions. Only a credulous fool would believe them. Logically what advantage would Ukraine get from using the rare and useful western munitions to deliveratlyntarget something that has zero military value and a high chance of cutting of acces to those vital munitions?

[BeElBeeBub]

Calling them protests is a strawman.

That's not what a strawman is......

 We are talking about violent revolution, in which many people on both sides died.  How do you know People crossing the med in dingies are not trying to get to the UK (not in the EU)?  You don't know they are risking their lives for the EU.  The revolution was a CIA coup, not angry EU-philes.

Again your memory seems somewhat faulty 

The intial protests were a few thousand people ad hoc gathering in the square.

Things only turned violent a.week or so later when the protests were violently broken up by riot police.

The escalation of violence between police and protesters continued over the new year. Over 100 protesters were killed by gunfire.

In late Feb 2014 Yanukovych and opposition leaders signed an agreement to end the violence.  This agreement was mediated by representatives from Europe and Russia. Amongst the stipulations was that Yanukovych remain as president. This stipulation was supported by the US - which is pretty weird if the whole affair was a.CIA plot to remove him.

Either way he fled the next day and then surfaced in Russia.

[BeElBeeBub]

As memory serves, I think this is false, so can you back up this claim?

Your memory is incorrect.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/6963

Feb 22 2013

A total of 315 of the 349 MPs registered in the sitting hall supported the document on Friday.

The draft document reads that the Verkhovna Rada "within its powers, will ensure that the recommendations concerning the signing of the Association Agreement between Ukraine and the EU, which are stipulated in the resolutions of the European Parliament and the conclusions of the Council of the EU approved on December 10, 2012, at a meeting of the EU foreign ministers, will be fulfilled."

The draft document also reads that while expecting positive results from the EU-Ukraine Summit due on February 25 and the Eastern Partnership Summit due on November 28-29, 2013, the Ukrainian parliament will assist in completing the fulfillment of the tasks agreed upon with the EU, first of all, within the EU-Ukraine Association Agenda and the EU-Ukraine Visa Liberalization Action Plan (VLAP), and will ensure that amendments to the EU-Ukraine Visa Facilitation Agreement are ratified.

For reference there are 450 MPs in total. So at least 70% (a supermajority) of MPs voted for moving the EU association forward.