Brexit and the seven-year itch: Would voters change their minds?

[BeElBeeBub]

No nor me . The only mention of the russians I remember was from a Russian dissedent Vladimir  Bukosky
The European Union - the New Soviet Union? - YouTube

Ahhh the old EUSSR trope.

Trotted out time and time again by people who don't have a fucking clue how the EU was structured.

Here's a test if the EU is anything like the Soviet Union.

What would have happened to Nigelski Farageavitch, noted anti Soviet Union politician? Gulag? Fall out of a window? A decade of well paid and expensed work in the Soviet Parliment?

How did it go when members of the Soviet Union decided to leave? President mysteriously poisoned? Russian tanks drivingntowards your capital? Several years of negotiations followed by a separation?

When was the last time EU agents used radioactive poison in London? Or maybe nerve agents in a cathedral city?

[BeElBeeBub]

The referendum paper asked if we wanted to stay in the EU or not.

I don't recall  any mention of becoming part of Russia

It's good you can recall the referendum paper. Do you recall the paper asking if we wanted to leave the single market and customs union?

Do you recall if the paper asked if we should leave the ECHR?

I'll save you the time, it didn't. It just asked if we wanted to leave the EU. And the result was a very narrow yes.

And we did leave the EU, we are no longer members.
And yet somehow people keep imagining that the result gave them a mandate for other things.

[Streetwalker]

The referendum paper asked if we wanted to stay in the EU or not.

I don't recall  any mention of becoming part of Russia

No nor me . The only mention of the russians I remember was from a Russian dissedent Vladimir  Bukosky
 The European Union - the New Soviet Union? - YouTube

[Streetwalker]

I'll grant some of those backing leave were opportunistic chancers looking to further their career, but you advocated to " bar remainer MP's from voting on Brexit matters", by your yardstick that would have meant Douglas Carswell would have the entirety of the say on Brexit..... hardly democratic.

would you accept that barring MPs from voting based on their referendum stance is the antithesis of democracy?

In this important national issue democracy had already taken place with a clear mandate to act on it . Each and every vote that took place after it watered down Brexit , thats undemocratic  . 
And yes the only leave party in the game at the time should have had a greater say in the process ,it was clear that the electorate had seperated the governance of the country with our relationship with the EU with MEP majorities for both UKIP and the Brexit party in elections either side of the referendum along with Johnsons 80 seat majority in 2019 on the back of 'get brexit done '.
That was a clear democracy in action , we were not  asking MP's to delay and turn brexit into what remainer MP's thought they could get away with making such a hash of it that some think we should now rejoin . 

And some wonder why people are switching off from politics ,have become politically homeless and won't bother to vote .  If they are clearly not going to do what we elect them to do whats the point of it all ? 
So yes in this case only people willing to enact the referendum result should have been anywhere near it .

Let's look at this example

Lets not , only complete numpties on the remainer  left tried to make something out of the Farage poster that wasn't there and they were shot down 7 years ago . To drag it back up after we have done it to death  and hope for a different answer  says you were not paying attention the first second and third times we discussed it , or maybe you just forgot 

[Borchester]

From my point of view, Leavers were the ones convinced to sell the UK out to a foreign power.

The alleged words of former Russian ambassador to the UK, Mr Yakovenko, after the result:

"We have crushed the British to the ground...They are on their knees, and they will not rise for a very long time."

The referendum paper asked if we wanted to stay in the EU or not.

I don't recall  any mention of becoming part of Russia

[BeElBeeBub]

Beebum was the one who voted to sell the UK out to another power, so he does not do shame.

From my point of view, Leavers were the ones convinced to sell the UK out to a foreign power.

The alleged words of former Russian ambassador to the UK, Mr Yakovenko, after the result:

"We have crushed the British to the ground...They are on their knees, and they will not rise for a very long time."

[BeElBeeBub]

Probably but not on this .They were all very much last minute leavers which would suggest they went along with what was best for their own political good . Change from within eurosceptics at best not true leavers 

I'll grant some of those backing leave were opportunistic chancers looking to further their career, but you advocated to " bar remainer MP's from voting on Brexit matters", by your yardstick that would have meant Douglas Carswell would have the entirety of the say on Brexit..... hardly democratic.

would you accept that barring MPs from voting based on their referendum stance is the antithesis of democracy?

.The socialist parties that have pushed for the fedralisation of Europe are not doing so good are they . People want representation from their governments that reflects their own political views ,or at least some of them . When governments get detatched from the people they get a kicking as the Government found out with Brexit and the Conservatives will find out next year . Many of Europes governments have become detatched ,they will get a kicking at some point .

And it seems that the political views of the UK are now for rejoin. Why should the vote in 2016 have more import than any vote after? Parliament is sovereign remember?

As for the argument that the reason brexit hasn't worked is because it hasn't been done properly:  That is possible, however it is also possible that the reason it hasn't worked is because it could never work.  My investment in the Nigerian Unobtanium mine hasn't paid off yet.  It is possible that's because I haven't given enough money to my friend the ex-King of Nigeria.  Or it might be because, despite what the ex-King of Nigeria told me, the investment in a Nigerian Unobtainium mine was never going to actual bear fruit.

Of course, at this point I am thoroughly invested in Nigerian Unobtanium LLP, so I would never admit that I made the wrong decision.  Instead I will increasingly blame those who warned me it was probably a scam and listen only to Nigerian Kings when they tell me to send more money.

Thats a pretty pathetic comment ,shame on you 

It's accurate, many of the "bring back the glorious past" brigade seem to be advocating views that align with the views of Axis governments.

Let's look at this example



Note the language in the Nazi propaganda against eastern european jews and compare it to some of the language used against immigrants today.

You yourself advocated curtailing parliament (in your example to one person) and that "the will of the people" is supreme.  The idea that a small group or even single person (a leader if you will) embodies the "will of the people" and is empowered to enact that free of any restraint of parliament or judiciary would have resonated in 1930's Italy, Germany, Spain etc.

[Borchester]

Probably but not on this .They were all very much last minute leavers which would suggest they went along with what was best for their own political good . Change from within eurosceptics at best not true leavers .The socialist parties that have pushed for the fedralisation of Europe are not doing so good are they . People want representation from their governments that reflects their own political views ,or at least some of them . When governments get detatched from the people they get a kicking as the Government found out with Brexit and the Conservatives will find out next year . Many of Europes governments have become detatched ,they will get a kicking at some point .
Thats a pretty pathetic comment ,shame on you 

Beebum was the one who voted to sell the UK out to another power, so he does not do shame.

[Streetwalker]

Is your memory faulty? 

Probably but not on this .

Over 130 Conservative MPs backed leave. And 10 Labour ones.

Including Sunak, Gove, Johnson, Hooey, Kwarteng, bone, Francois to name but a few. You are suggesting that they should have been banned from voting if Remain won.

They were all very much last minute leavers which would suggest they went along with what was best for their own political good . Change from within eurosceptics at best not true leavers .

Somehow not surprised that alot of Brexiters are keen on the rise of the Right in Europe.

The socialist parties that have pushed for the fedralisation of Europe are not doing so good are they . People want representation from their governments that reflects their own political views ,or at least some of them . When governments get detatched from the people they get a kicking as the Government found out with Brexit and the Conservatives will find out next year . Many of Europes governments have become detatched ,they will get a kicking at some point .

Alot secretly fantasize about being around during the WW2. Alot don't realise they would probably have been siding with Axis back then.

Thats a pretty pathetic comment ,shame on you  

[BeElBeeBub]

At the time there was only one (Carswell) Brexiteer MP sitting in parliament so it wouldn't have made much difference .

Is your memory faulty? Over 130 Conservative MPs backed leave. And 10 Labour ones.

Including Sunak, Gove, Johnson, Hooey, Kwarteng, bone, Francois to name but a few. You are suggesting that they should have been banned from voting if Remain won.

..... along with the rise of the right across Europe riegning in  the federalists programme I might even go for rejoining myself

Somehow not surprised that alot of Brexiters are keen on the rise of the Right in Europe.

Alot secretly fantasize about being around during the WW2. Alot don't realise they would probably have been siding with Axis back then.

[Streetwalker]

I suppose if the result had been 52/48 the other way you would be 100% behind brexiter MPs being banned from voting on EU matters?

At the time there was only one (Carswell) Brexiteer MP sitting in parliament so it wouldn't have made much difference . The few eurosceptics were as they had shown in the past and even after the referendum easily persuaded to vote in line with the remainer government 

Presumably "Hard Remain" would have been the "will.of the people" - there would be a mandate for joining the euro, full federalism, dissolving the British armed forces for an EU army, joint foreign policy etc?

Yes it would have been the will of the people . All those things were warned about had we remained and are what I would have expected in time . 
If thats what the majority wanted then so be it .

I suspect not  😁

You suspect wrong 

Who exactly gets to decide exactly what the "will of the people" is?

The people do which they did in 2016

Right now it looks like the "will of the people" is to rejoin the EU, so why are you so against "the will of the people"?

I think we have to leave properly first and give it a fair go during more stable times before we start talking about what people do and don't think about brexit. 
With the incompetents we seem to be producing as politicians ourselves along with the rise of the right across Europe riegning in  the federalists programme I might even go for rejoining myself 

[Barry]

Who exactly gets to decide exactly what the "will of the people" is?

Right now it looks like the "will of the people" is to rejoin the EU, so why are you so against "the will of the people"?

The LibDems have a policy of re-joining the EU so they should romp the next General Election with 60% of the vote. Should be great. Ask Jo Swinson.

[BeElBeeBub]

As usual the thicko's at the BBC have completely missed the meaning of the saying they are trying to use to say something .

What we actually had in 2016 was a 40 year itch that had become so sore we decided to treat it with a dose of '' Up yours we are British ''
You can break it down however you like as to what that meant to different people but the bottom line was we wanted less interference from Europe and a competent  British government  .
Stage one has been completed (almost) , stage two ,sorting out the tossers in Westminster will take longer  .

The only thing we should have done different was to bar remainer MP's from voting on Brexit matters  , it should have been a condition of the vote as having a remainer parliament voting against the will of the people was always going to make our Brexit a difficult one .

I suppose if the result had been 52/48 the other way you would be 100% behind brexiter MPs being banned from voting on EU matters? 

Presumably "Hard Remain" would have been the "will.of the people" - there would be a mandate for joining the euro, full federalism, dissolving the British armed forces for an EU army, joint foreign policy etc?

I suspect not  😁

Who exactly gets to decide exactly what the "will of the people" is?

Right now it looks like the "will of the people" is to rejoin the EU, so why are you so against "the will of the people"?

[BeElBeeBub]

And now the Yanks have pitched in, although that may just be a reaction to our continually criticising Dead Joe for falling off his bike

https://archive.is/FAc3j/again?url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/21/opinion/brexit-disaster.html#selection-339.0-339.50

I am intrigued as to the antipathy towards Biden. 
Why the childlike insults? "Dead Joe", "Sleepy Joe" etc 

Ok he's clearly past his best, but those playground insults seem to come from the supporters of a candidate who is even less suited to the presidency than an octogenarian. 

I just wonder why someone from the UK is getting entangled in that web

[Borchester]

As usual the thicko's at the BBC have completely missed the meaning of the saying they are trying to use to say something .

What we actually had in 2016 was a 40 year itch that had become so sore we decided to treat it with a dose of '' Up yours we are British ''
You can break it down however you like as to what that meant to different people but the bottom line was we wanted less interference from Europe and a competent  British government  .
Stage one has been completed (almost) , stage two ,sorting out the tossers in Westminster will take longer  .

The only thing we should have done different was to bar remainer MP's from voting on Brexit matters  , it should have been a condition of the vote as having a remainer parliament voting against the will of the people was always going to make our Brexit a difficult one .

And now the Yanks have pitched in, although that may just be a reaction to our continually criticising Dead Joe for falling off his bike

https://archive.is/FAc3j/again?url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/21/opinion/brexit-disaster.html#selection-339.0-339.50