Can you afford net zero?

[HDQQ]

If we weren't facing Net Zero and the green agenda, we'd be facing an oil and gas crisis instead. If world demand for these finite resources were to continue growing, they'd be used up even quicker. We're already past the peak of North Sea oil and gas and Putin has shown how big an effect a war can have on fossil fuel prices. Oil and gas reserves are measured in decades, not centuries and nobody except Trump seriously want to go back to coal.

[papasmurf]

Well, if you need to replace your heating system at some point near in mind Air To Air HPs. They obviously have managed the corrosion issue as a big market for the devices is costal areas, and I've definitely seen them in seafront locations and even of a ferry!

I have as  yet found nothing that can stand the corrosion where I live, it is no good having to replace expensive items every five years. There is still the issue of nowhere to put a 2ftx2ftx1ft box on an outside wall.

Electricity supply here is unreliable, we need the open fireplace and bottle gas for the double gas ring in the kitchen. (I am on the priority list for power cuts as I have medication that need to be kept at between 4C and 8C.)

[BeElBeeBub]

Corrosion resistant does not work locally. (I just went outside to do some measuring, to find storm damage due to corrosion I had not noticed before.) My situation is not unique at all, there are 60 properties close by with the same problem. I have gas cylinders but to comply with regulations they have to be a metre or more away from the house, due to airvents in the wall and closeness to a door. There is nowhere on the front of or back of my semi-detached home to fit the box. (The gable end would entail breaking through into one of he bedrooms. It would also need an upgrade to the "trips," box.)

Well, if you need to replace your heating system at some point near in mind Air To Air HPs. They obviously have managed the corrosion issue as a big market for the devices is costal areas, and I've definitely seen them in seafront locations and even of a ferry!

[papasmurf]

Salt atmosphere is a problem, but not a unique one, most manufacturers offer a corrosion resistant finish as an option.

Your situation must be pretty unique that you cant fit a box that big *somewhere* on your property, they don't have to be at ground level or even on your building.  They can be in the garden, on top of the garage etc.  If you aren't on mains gas, you must have an oil/LPG tank or even cylinders somewhere? This is far smaller than any of those.

Corrosion resistant does not work locally. (I just went outside to do some measuring, to find storm damage due to corrosion I had not noticed before.) My situation is not unique at all, there are 60 properties close by with the same problem. I have gas cylinders but to comply with regulations they have to be a metre or more away from the house, due to airvents in the wall and closeness to a door. There is nowhere on the front of or back of my semi-detached home to fit the box. (The gable end would entail breaking through into one of he bedrooms. It would also need an upgrade to the "trips," box.)

[BeElBeeBub]

Salt atmosphere is a problem, but not a unique one, most manufacturers offer a corrosion resistant finish as an option.

Your situation must be pretty unique that you cant fit a box that big *somewhere* on your property, they don't have to be at ground level or even on your building.  They can be in the garden, on top of the garage etc.  If you aren't on mains gas, you must have an oil/LPG tank or even cylinders somewhere? This is far smaller than any of those. 

[papasmurf]

What sort of house do you have that you can't fit a 800x800x300 box outside?  These units are fitted all over the place.

It is not just the problem of finding anywhere to fit it, anything outside here get "eaten" by the salt atmosphere due to the proximity to the sea.  (Plus  2.6 feet X2.6 feet x1 foot there really is nowhere to fit it.) 

[BeElBeeBub]

I NEVER stated heat pumps don't work. I also have not got a few £thousands. There is nothing wrong with my current system, it works well.
Also there is nowhere in or outside my home to mount the systems you referenced.

≤shrugs>

Only trying to help.

If you're happy with your current system, then don't change.

If you aren't on mains gas, an air to air HP is likely to be cheaper to run, though you will need to pay for the new equipment, just like you would need to pay for a new boiler if your existing one croaked.

Be aware the media tends to discuss air to water heatpumps when they say "heatpumps".  For some properties with unsuitable wet systems (sounds like yours is one) they aren't the best solution. Air to air is a very good (some argue better) solution and extremely common and proven across the world.

What sort of house do you have that you can't fit a 800x800x300 box outside?  These units are fitted all over the place.

[papasmurf]

Your problem is your heating system is ancient and crap. Not that Heatpumps don't work.

Given your existing wet system is so bad, have you considered a "minisplit" air to air system?

They cost a few thousand pounds plus a day or two fitting and have seasonal efficencies high enough to actually be cheaper than mains gas.  They don't do hot water, but they do also cool in the summer.

The best bit is you don't need to touch your existing system. You can keep that in reserve if you need it (and for hot water)

I've attached an example spec sheet so you know what I mean (you'll recognise the type when you see it)

I NEVER stated heat pumps don't work. I also have not got a few £thousands. There is nothing wrong with my current system, it works well.
Also there is nowhere in or outside my home to mount the systems you referenced.

[BeElBeeBub]

That is what my home would need. Currently I have an open fireplace with a back boiler that heats the microbore piping to the radiators for central heating. (There a lot of homes similar to that. 60 of them near me.) It would also be VERY difficult to find anywhere externally to fit a heat pump.
Heat pumps are a non starter for a significant number of homes. I have looked at all the "green" "net zero" options for my home, they are all non starters due to cost. What grants are available are frankly derisory.

There is no mains gas where I live, so no-one has a gas boiler to replace.

Your problem is your heating system is ancient and crap. Not that Heatpumps don't work.

Given your existing wet system is so bad, have you considered a "minisplit" air to air system?

They cost a few thousand pounds plus a day or two fitting and have seasonal efficencies high enough to actually be cheaper than mains gas.  They don't do hot water, but they do also cool in the summer.

The best bit is you don't need to touch your existing system. You can keep that in reserve if you need it (and for hot water)

I've attached an example spec sheet so you know what I mean (you'll recognise the type when you see it)

[BeElBeeBub]

But then you will look rather silly if after fixing the drains you find out the problems persist because it wasn't the drains after all but the cat pissing in the corner

Fair enough, but when you've been researching the drains for decades and almost every expert who's looked at the drains agree it's the drains and not your cat, or sun spots it starts to look an awful lot like you just don't want to bother fixing things and are happy to leave a fucked house for the next generation rather than a reasoned argument.

[Streetwalker]

Well if GB news, noted bastion of impartial and rigourous journalism, said it then in must be true!

But let's pretend it is.

Did they also put out the cost of not reaching net zero?

"It will cost too much" has been the go to argument for doing nothing for decades, but it doesn't take into account the cost of doing nothing.

Fixing your drains so they don't just empty foul and rain water into your foundations may be costly. But doing nothing until you have a horrendous damp problem, your ground floor timbers rot and your house subsides will cost more.

But then you will look rather silly if after fixing the drains you find out the problems persist because it wasn't the drains after all but the cat pissing in the corner 

[papasmurf]

I saw that program and I think they were slightly unfair in their example. The house featured was an £18k job but they were doing a complete replumb of the heating system. 

That is what my home would need. Currently I have an open fireplace with a back boiler that heats the microbore piping to the radiators for central heating. (There a lot of homes similar to that. 60 of them near me.) It would also be VERY difficult to find anywhere externally to fit a heat pump.
Heat pumps are a non starter for a significant number of homes. I have looked at all the "green" "net zero" options for my home, they are all non starters due to cost. What grants are available are frankly derisory.

There is no mains gas where I live, so no-one has a gas boiler to replace. 

[BeElBeeBub]

Nick because I have researched heat pumps, and got quotes. They are 20% less efficient in winter, and would cost at least £18000 to install in my home. (There has been two recent TV programs explaining the issues in depth and detail.)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0fzltvd/what-they-really-mean-for-you-series-1-2-heat-pumps#xtor=CS8-1000-%5BEditorialPromo_Box%5D-%5BNewsEditorial_Promo%5D-%5BNewsEditorial_Promo%5D-%5BPS_IPLAYER~N~p0fzltvd~P_Heatpumps%5D

I saw that program and I think they were slightly unfair in their example. The house featured was an £18k job but they were doing a complete replumb of the heating system.  The age and condition of what was there suggests it's the original system, which would need replacing sometime soon anywaynat a similar cost.  The cost of a gas boiler for a typical house is £1-2k with a day or two labour. 

The cost of a heat pump is £2-5k (there are more expensive models) and, if you were just swapping the boiler, could also be similar labour. Most of the cost difference is due to volumes. We make and fit over 1m gas boilers a year, so there are huge.economies of scale. HPs could drop to.similar levels of the quantities were similar (there isn't much to them)

[BeElBeeBub]

Discussion on GB News earlier the estimated cost to each household of Net Zero £71000.

Well if GB news, noted bastion of impartial and rigourous journalism, said it then in must be true!

But let's pretend it is.

Did they also put out the cost of not reaching net zero?

"It will cost too much" has been the go to argument for doing nothing for decades, but it doesn't take into account the cost of doing nothing.

Fixing your drains so they don't just empty foul and rain water into your foundations may be costly. But doing nothing until you have a horrendous damp problem, your ground floor timbers rot and your house subsides will cost more.

[papasmurf]

To be fair, Pappy might have a point.

It isn't "my" point. It is expert analysis. Plus the extra work needed to many homes to even make a heat pump viable. (All detailed in the two videos I referenced.)