Gaza

[Barry]

The 1948 border wasn't acceptable to them. But, what I meant was that they might accept it now. After all they would be getting one helluva lot more than they have at present. 

What a deluded position to take.

Of course, the Israelis would have something to say about that. But, given the level of bombing, killing and maiming of civilians hopefully some of the Israeli leadership will be charged with war crimes.

There would have to be evidence of war crimes first, Moray.

You believe that only Hamas fighters are being killed?
A hospital was hit this evening, killing at least 500 people. Legitimate target? Hospitals are not meant to be hit during a war. One of many war crimes perpetrated by the Israelis.

You are regurgitating the press release of Hamas. You prefer to believe the output of this terrorist scum? They are proscribed for a reason. It's dangerous putting out their nonsense, you help to foment hatred against Israelis. Have you caught up that it was an own goal by Islamic Jihad?

Hamas were out of order in what they did. However, unfortunately they did take hostages and will use them as bargaining chips.

Hamas committed murders in what they did. There's no however. They should and will pay.

[Nick]

Sorry but the Palestinians have suffered for decades. Israel has made land grabs, over that time, with their country massively increasing in area to the detriment of the Palestinians. They are now set to chase the Palestinians out of Gaza.
It remains to be seen if 'Hamas has shot their own cause in the foot'.
I see the Israelis are trying to blame Islamic Jihad for the missile strike on the Baptist hospital
I watched, with incredulity, an interview with a high ranking IDF military officer who denied that there was a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and that the IDF only targets Hamas positions. That is so palpably untrue. We have all seen the results, of their inhumanity, on news programmes.
If they believe that all their strikes are on Hamas positions, then they must be equating all Palestinians with Hamas. It is the only answer to why they have indiscriminately killed and maimed thousands.

Israel have denied they shot at the hospital, and it's not beyond reasonable doubt that Hamas did it, they are known for using their own people as shields and the like. 

[morayloon]

  

The barbarous acts meted out to soldiers yes but mostly civilians is so utterly indefensible that it must be unequivocally condemned. The anger of Israeli citizens must be understood. Many of them have lost loved ones or seen loved ones taken hostage amidst brutal treatment. And Israel's need to act against Hamas needs to be understood. We can criticise if it too obviously oversteps the mark, we can advise caution where necessary from the perspective of greater distance and cooler heads. But what Hamas has done cannot possibly go unpunished.
People like me on the left have found it all too easy to understand how the Palestinians feel, and they do have much to feel aggrieved about. But the Israelis are people with feelings too, and they are never going to be minded to seek a fair deal with the Palestinians when stuff like this happens to them. Hamas has shot their own cause in the foot.

Sorry but the Palestinians have suffered for decades. Israel has made land grabs, over that time, with their country massively increasing in area to the detriment of the Palestinians. They are now set to chase the Palestinians out of Gaza. 
It remains to be seen if 'Hamas has shot their own cause in the foot'.
I see the Israelis are trying to blame Islamic Jihad for the missile strike on the Baptist hospital
I watched, with incredulity, an interview with a high ranking IDF military officer who denied that there was a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and that the IDF only targets Hamas positions. That is so palpably untrue. We have all seen the results, of their inhumanity, on news programmes. 
If they believe that all their strikes are on Hamas positions, then they must be equating all Palestinians with Hamas. It is the only answer to why they have indiscriminately killed and maimed thousands.

[morayloon]

If the 1948 border was acceptable to the Arabs, why did they invade, pray tell?

Israel are killing and maiming thousands of Hamas fighter Palestinians in their war to prevent their extinction. It's similar to the war of independence forced on them in 1948 by those Arabs attacking the day the State of Israel came into being.

How do you feel about the hostages?

The 1948 border wasn't acceptable to them. But, what I meant was that they might accept it now. After all they would be getting one helluva lot more than they have at present. Of course, the Israelis would have something to say about that. But, given the level of bombing, killing and maiming of civilians hopefully some of the Israeli leadership will be charged with war crimes. 
You believe that only Hamas fighters are being killed? 
A hospital was hit this evening, killing at least 500 people. Legitimate target? Hospitals are not meant to be hit during a war. One of many war crimes perpetrated by the Israelis.
Hamas were out of order in what they did. However, unfortunately they did take hostages and will use them as bargaining chips.

[srb7677]

What the Israelis are doing is inhumane. They are murdering and maiming thousands of Palestinians with their indiscriminate bombing. Whatever moral high ground they may have had, following the Hamas incursion, has disappeared.

The Israelis are doing what the always do, bombing the hell out of somewhere in retaliation with much death caused to civilians.

As a left winger who supports oppressed peoples everywhere as a matter of course, I have long been sympathetic to the oppressed Palestinians. The illegal land thefts in the West bank by Israeli settlers is legally indefensible, and further ratchets up Palestinian animosity. On the ground around their settlements is much mutual animosity and hatred between Jew and Arab. The anger of an oppressed people, held down for decades, is always going to be a fertile breeding ground for the likes of Hamas. And Israel has recently been run by a very right wing regime, some of whose constituent parts are overtly racist and anti-Arab

But having said all that, what Hamas has done is totally abhorrent and indefensible, and is naturally going to fuel Israeli anger and fear in ways which are never going to be helpful to the Palestinians. The mass killing of Israeli young people attending a festival, burning them alive in their cars as they attempted to flee, killing babies, taking nearly 200 civilians hostage, killing many more in their own homes, the vast majority of victims defenceless civilians. Nothing can justify this level of barbarity, and we on the left too need to stand up and condemn it. And recognise that in the face of such an attack Israel cannot just do nothing, and needs to try and destroy Hamas, as we would anyone doing the same thing in our country. And it is also time to recognise that Hamas regularly attacks from within heavily populated areas, knowing that any attacks upon them killing civilians is good anti-Israeli propaganda for them.

And whilst the people of Israel voted in a hard right government, the people of Gaza when they last had the chance voted for Hamas. Not all of them to be sure but enough of them. On both sides.

The barbarous acts meted out to soldiers yes but mostly civilians is so utterly indefensible that it must be unequivocally condemned. The anger of Israeli citizens must be understood. Many of them have lost loved ones or seen loved ones taken hostage amidst brutal treatment. And Israel's need to act against Hamas needs to be understood. We can criticise if it too obviously oversteps the mark, we can advise caution where necessary from the perspective of greater distance and cooler heads. But what Hamas has done cannot possibly go unpunished.

How after all would we be reacting if it had happened here? Our own loved ones killed or brutally kidnapped and held hostage? Think about that for just a moment and we begin to understand Israel and how its people feel right now.

People like me on the left have found it all too easy to understand how the Palestinians feel, and they do have much to feel aggrieved about. But the Israelis are people with feelings too, and they are never going to be minded to seek a fair deal with the Palestinians when stuff like this happens to them. Hamas has shot their own cause in the foot.

[Nick]

When the Israelis stop taking the land of the Palestinians and get back to the 1948 border perhaps the Palestinians might agree to it as a compromise. Although they do want Palestinian hegemony, Hamas does accept other religions' rights to exist.
I can't see Hamas agreeing to anything while the Israelis continually seek to expand the Israeli state.

What vested interest?
I just feel that amidst, the reaction to the Hamas atrocities, there is hardly any condemnation of the scale of Israeli retribution which has killed and maimed thousands of Palestinians. Western states are, mainly, supporting Israel despite the  indiscriminate bombing and shelling of Gaza

Yasser Arafat issued a fatwa against Israel, I believe there wasn't even a fence line between the 2 countries, with people crossing over every day to work. What do you expect Israel with that?

[Streetwalker]

Lots of political posturing coming up as Sleepy Joe heads for Israel ,Iran appears to be taking the lead for the Arabs though of course they are really Persians ,mostly .

[Barry]

When the Israelis stop taking the land of the Palestinians and get back to the 1948 border perhaps the Palestinians might agree to it as a compromise. Although they do want Palestinian hegemony, Hamas does accept other religions' rights to exist.
I can't see Hamas agreeing to anything while the Israelis continually seek to expand the Israeli state.

What vested interest?
I just feel that amidst, the reaction to the Hamas atrocities, there is hardly any condemnation of the scale of Israeli retribution which has killed and maimed thousands of Palestinians. Western states are, mainly, supporting Israel despite the  indiscriminate bombing and shelling of Gaza

If the 1948 border was acceptable to the Arabs, why did they invade, pray tell?

Israel are killing and maiming thousands of Hamas fighter Palestinians in their war to prevent their extinction. It's similar to the war of independence forced on them in 1948 by those Arabs attacking the day the State of Israel came into being.

How do you feel about the hostages?

[morayloon]

When Hamas recognise Israel's right to exist, perhaps they'll get along a bit better.
Anyway, you seem really exercised about this at the moment, morayloon. Have you some vested interest? You seem hugely partisan.

When the Israelis stop taking the land of the Palestinians and get back to the 1948 border perhaps the Palestinians might agree to it as a compromise. Although they do want Palestinian hegemony, Hamas does accept other religions' rights to exist.
I can't see Hamas agreeing to anything while the Israelis continually seek to expand the Israeli state.

What vested interest?
I just feel that amidst, the reaction to the Hamas atrocities, there is hardly any condemnation of the scale of Israeli retribution which has killed and maimed thousands of Palestinians. Western states are, mainly, supporting Israel despite the  indiscriminate bombing and shelling of Gaza

[Streetwalker]

The Israelis know that there are about 2 million innocents in Gaza yet they chose to bomb the hell out of the enclave, killing and maiming thousands in the process. It is reminiscent of what the Americans did in Iraq and what the Brits did to Dresden etc.
If the Americans enter, I wouldn't be surprised if Iran and most of the Muslim world retaliate.

Which is probably what Hamas set out to do .They will be delighted with that outcome .

[Barry]

The Israelis know that there are about 2 million innocents in Gaza yet they chose to bomb the hell out of the enclave, killing and maiming thousands in the process. It is reminiscent of what the Americans did in Iraq and what the Brits did to Dresden etc.
If the Americans enter, I wouldn't be surprised if Iran and most of the Muslim world retaliate.

When Hamas recognise Israel's right to exist, perhaps they'll get along a bit better.
Anyway, you seem really exercised about this at the moment, morayloon. Have you some vested interest? You seem hugely partisan.

[morayloon]

On the face of it a lot of people would agree . But we don't know if its indiscriminate bombing or if they are targeting legitimate targets . The problem in Gaza is that its that small a landmass for the population that legitimate targets and the general population are in the same place .


And having bombed the crap out of gaza the Iranian backed loony tunes from the Lebanon and Syria will start bombing the crap out of Israel .

Enter the USA .

I don't think it is anything we should be hoping for JoG

The Israelis know that there are about 2 million innocents in Gaza yet they chose to bomb the hell out of the enclave, killing and maiming thousands in the process. It is reminiscent of what the Americans did in Iraq and what the Brits did to Dresden etc.
If the Americans enter, I wouldn't be surprised if Iran and most of the Muslim world retaliate. 

[morayloon]

Mossad will be monitoring them. Their time will come.

Where was Mossad when all this kicked off? Perhaps it is not such a great organisation after all. Its reputation has been given a serious setback.

[Barry]

I agree , so why are they not bombing their villas in Qatar ?

Mossad will be monitoring them. Their time will come.

[Streetwalker]

What the Israelis are doing is inhumane. They are murdering and maiming thousands of Palestinians with their indiscriminate bombing. Whatever moral high ground they may have had, following the Hamas incursion, has disappeared.

On the face of it a lot of people would agree . But we don't know if its indiscriminate bombing or if they are targeting legitimate targets . The problem in Gaza is that its that small a landmass for the population that legitimate targets and the general population are in the same place .

I think we should never have given the jews a foothold in Palestine in the first place, i have watched them kick off time and time again and hopefully Iran will end it for us pretty soon

And having bombed the crap out of gaza the Iranian backed loony tunes from the Lebanon and Syria will start bombing the crap out of Israel .

Enter the USA . 

I don't think it is anything we should be hoping for JoG