Yet more proof.

[BeElBeeBub]

which is fine, because my theories are better than yours, so it's a cop out when you use derogatory name-calling instead of having a legitimate argument.

"I'm saying that the Russians probably meddled in the ref (and 2017)."

https://pol-tics.com/index.php?topic=193.msg4215#msg4215

The "steel beams are hard to melt" family of theories are well known conspiracy theories.

On the other hand the suspicion that Russia had meddled in UK elections and referendums was well enough founded to merit a parliamentary investigation which had been completed when I wrote that but not published due to unusual delays by the Johnson Government.

When eventually published, the report stated there was evidence substantial russian influence in UK politics via a number of routes.

[Scott777]

 I've got an EV and it's 💩, can nearly get 200 miles out of it, and many times it won't accept the handshake from the charger and I am lwft doing 10 miles an hour with my hazards on desperately trying to get to the next charge station.

It doesn't sound like as much fun as Tron led me to believe.  😉

And if our lovely Labour government decide you've been a naughty boy, and do what Trudeau did, block your bank account so you can't pay for a charge?

[Nick]

But you don't get to own your wind turbine.  And solar panels and batteries will always be dependent on big tech, because they don't last very long.

And what are wind turbine blades made from?... CARBON FIBRE
Insid some work for a company call Hexcel that produce FB for companies like Boeing and Airbus, the amount of chemicals, electricity and heat that goes into making it probably takes years to get back. After they've made it they put it in a huge deep freeze until they want to use it to stop the catalyst from working on the resin, more energy used. 

The only reason solar and wind are cheaper is because we are paying our taxes to give them huge grants to build the bloody things, so it might be cheaper at the point of use but we have already paid tons in tax to get to that point. 

[Nick]

Just remind us all, where does wood come from?  Do we depend on a "shadowy cabal" to get some?

Then just remind me how to produce and store your own electricity without an oil or gas product, and without green tech which depends on a corporation?  Can you make a solar panel?  Can you make a wind turbine?

Just to put this solar into perspective, and these are based on 2022 published figures admittedly. 
The earthed used 25,000 Terawatts of electricity in 2021, of that 855 Terawatts came from Solar. That means increasing the number by 30 times, and that's before we all start driving like the Jetsons. I've got an EV and it's 💩, can nearly get 200 miles out of it, and many times it won't accept the handshake from the charger and I am lwft doing 10 miles an hour with my hazards on desperately trying to get to the next charge station. 

The fact is, the answer was nuclear in the 80 when Mrs T in her wisdom pointed it out, and frankly all you Liberals screwed us over with your Swampy's, CND and burn you bra mentality. Now you're the one telling us we're ruining the planet!! Couldn't make it up. 

[Scott777]

The key difference is that once you have the capital equipment (solar panels, batteries, wind turbines) you aren't dependent on a product that can be controlled.

But you don't get to own your wind turbine.  And solar panels and batteries will always be dependent on big tech, because they don't last very long.

[Scott777]

Just remind me where I can buy a wood powered car.

Why?  Nice strawman.  But in case your IQ ever reaches above 75, wood can also be used to keep you from freezing in the winter, to cook your food, to heat your water.  And that's what you want the state to control.  So why not actually admit it is easier to control electricity than fuel, and hence more beneficial for the state and corporations to switch to electric, and therefore politically useful to fund pro AGW research.

[Scott777]

whilst you have wandered off into known conspiracy territory

which is fine, because my theories are better than yours, so it's a cop out when you use derogatory name-calling instead of having a legitimate argument.

"I'm saying that the Russians probably meddled in the ref (and 2017)."

https://pol-tics.com/index.php?topic=193.msg4215#msg4215

[BeElBeeBub]

Then just remind me how to produce and store your own electricity without an oil or gas product, and without green tech which depends on a corporation?  Can you make a solar panel?  Can you make a wind turbine?

Your argument has wandered off again.

I have never claimed that you don't need oil and gas or corporations to make green tech line solar panels.

The key difference is that once you have the capital equipment (solar panels, batteries, wind turbines) you aren't dependent on a product that can be controlled.

I  contrast even if you have storage tanks and a diesel generator, you still need diesel and will for the life of your machines.

Either way, this is somewhat off topic from climate change (though less than 9/11 conspiracies)

[BeElBeeBub]

Just remind us all, where does wood come from?  Do we depend on a "shadowy cabal" to get some?

Just remind me where I can buy a wood powered car.

[BeElBeeBub]

It's another total cop out.  You said "You realise the big financial guns are the fossil fuel companies."  You suggested that is a reason for influencing research and publications.  That's your conspiracy theory.  Then when anyone has a different idea, you say it's crazy.  You are a hypocrite, and have no legitimate argument to make.

No *you* (and nick) suggested financial motives for scientists to back AGW.

I was pointing out that the big money is on the other side of the argument.

I've made tons of legitimate arguments h how come the overwhelming majority of papers in the field agree with AGW as a principle.   How do sunspots cause fossil carbon levels to rise? How can 03 affect climate when CO2 in concentrations 1000x more can't?

whilst you have wandered off into known conspiracy territory in an effort to argue that we cannot possibly know past temperatures accurately enough to tell any rise.

[Scott777]

If I was part of a shadowy cabal trying to keep the population under control I'd want them dependent on a energy source they can only get via me, not one they can generate and store at home.

Just remind us all, where does wood come from?  Do we depend on a "shadowy cabal" to get some?

Then just remind me how to produce and store your own electricity without an oil or gas product, and without green tech which depends on a corporation?  Can you make a solar panel?  Can you make a wind turbine?

[Scott777]

The main point was that the idea that using oil or gas makes you more independent from "control" is laughable tinfoil hat rubbish when you look at it.

It's another total cop out.  You said "You realise the big financial guns are the fossil fuel companies."  You suggested that is a reason for influencing research and publications.  That's your conspiracy theory.  Then when anyone has a different idea, you say it's crazy.  You are a hypocrite, and have no legitimate argument to make.

[BeElBeeBub]

Too expensive for me and many other people.

It's not cheap but it's not crazy expensive either (in the context of stuff for your house - it's comparable to other jobs like a new bathroom)

The main point was that the idea that using oil or gas makes you more independent from "control" is laughable tinfoil hat rubbish when you look at it.

If I was part of a shadowy cabal trying to keep the population under control I'd want them dependent on a energy source they can only get via me, not one they can generate and store at home.

[Scott777]

Right, whilst oil and gas are totally beyond the control of powerful organisations and governments?...

Battery storage is getting cheaper and cheaper. It's about £5k for a 10kwh system.

A 3 6kwh "turnkey" solar panel and battery camping system providing 240v is a little over £2,600.

You do have a point about "control" when it comes to the latest "smart" products.  I don't want my bloody fridge to be connected to the internet and my car shouldn't need "over the air updates" or a subscription for heated seats

No, oil is not TOTALLY beyond political control, that's not what I suggested.  It is easier to control your electric consumption, and to monitor it, and to block you from getting it, than the stuff you call fossil fuel.

Electricity storage takes up far more space than the equivalent energy in fuel form.

[Scott777]

You can store electricity BUT it is prohibitively expensive to do so for most people.

True, and also prohibitively space-consuming, compared to oil or petrol.