EU budget squabble

[Nick]

Have to got caught in an avalanche Gerry or have the cold hard facts frozen you tongue?

[Nick]

Correction.



JOG not JOW as I posted above.

[Nick]

It hasn't lost 11b beacuse that's not the nett figure. Read the article you linked, it's in there. The 11b doesn't account for direct payments by the EU.

Yes the EU has lost but it's not greatly significant. Youd swear you were talking about money to run the countries in the eu. It's mainly used to finance some projects in the lesser developed areas of the eu

Let's look at 2019 Gerry, see how small you can squeeze it. Regardless of how you want to damp it down we are still the 2nd largest net contributor, you can't change that. Having 15.2% less contributions is going to have a fairly deep Impact on the EU and you saying it's peanuts isn't going to change that either. The UK has chosen Brexit and we will accept and deal with any adverse affect, the EU has had this put on them with no choice in the matter and if they decide to try and make us pay for leaving then the €60 billion deficit we have is going to further hit the EU.



I'll take WTO rules right now, stick the extra 6 months money in our pocket as JoG said and away we go. The EU will soon have an economy on their doorstep that is out stripping them due to our advantage. Bring it on.  





Just to show you the new 2019 figures.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/19/britains-contribution-eu-rises-20-per-cent-year-uks-booming/">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... s-booming/">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/19/britains-contribution-eu-rises-20-per-cent-year-uks-booming/





Britain's contribution to the EU has shot up by £2.6 billion in the past 12 months, new Treasury figures show, as the UK's growing economy was used to prop up Brussels' budget.



An "eye-popping" £15.5 billion was sent across the Channel in the year ending March 31, compared with £12.9 billion the year before - an increase of 20 per cent.



The extra money would be enough to put 50,000 more police officers on the streets or fund 81,000 social care beds.



Brexiteers said the increase was yet more evidence that Britain must leave the EU as soon as possible to stop taxpayers' money "pouring into bottomless EU coffers".



Treasury accounts published this week show that the increase in Britain's contribution was driven by a rise in UK Gross National Income, which is used to calculate the largest part of the payment....

[Stevlin]

It hasn't lost 11b beacuse that's not the nett figure. Read the article you linked, it's in there. The 11b doesn't account for direct payments by the EU.

Yes the EU has lost but it's not greatly significant. Youd swear you were talking about money to run the countries in the eu. It's mainly used to finance some projects in the lesser developed areas of the eu

Geeez Gerry - you really don't have a clue do you!  From the UK government itself, -https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31">https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31">https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31

This concludes - Given these figures, the ONS reports that the UK government's net [size=150][/size]contribution to the EU – that is, the difference between the money it paid to the EU and the money it received – was £11.0 billion in 2018



You also ignore the fact that the euphemistically called EU contributions spent in the UK HAVE to be used on programmes dictated by the EU.



That has absolutely sod all to do with 'promoting mutually advantageous trade' has it?  It DOES however clearly illustrate that the EU IS acting as a pseudo-Federation of States......but it isn't yet the USSE is it? - despite it acting as one.

Personally, I would consider that sensible people realise that spending their money on projects to improve THEIR country's infrastructure is of paramount importance.....after all, we already currently borrow around £14 billion per annum to provide overseas aid.



Fortunately, the UK's  EU referendum indicated that at least there were more sensible people in the UK than there were  Remainers.

[GerryT]

Gerry, how many times. The EU isn't going to lose the 4 year average, they are going to lose contributions at current levels, 11bn. You can fudge it all you want but the EU has lost its second biggest NET contributor and will have to replace it. The remaining net contributors are already telling the EU they can whistle. Think I'll get the popcorn out.

It hasn't lost 11b beacuse that's not the nett figure. Read the article you linked, it's in there. The 11b doesn't account for direct payments by the EU.

Yes the EU has lost but it's not greatly significant. Youd swear you were talking about money to run the countries in the eu. It's mainly used to finance some projects in the lesser developed areas of the eu

[johnofgwent]

Finally on regulatory bodies, you do need them, without eurathom how will you get nuclear fuels.

I'll stick my neck in at this point



The Euratom Treaty ...



A pity you can only seem to readily get the version that the EU Ministry Of truth rewrote to "consolidate" the changes they made since its creation.



https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/documents-publications/publications/euratom-treaty/">https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/docu ... om-treaty/">https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/documents-publications/publications/euratom-treaty/



I'm pretty sure the original only had half a dozen signatories, but dad's paper copy of the original he managed to get hold of out of sheer curiosity while he worked for the UK Atomic Energy Authority seems to have been mislaid by my brother following his death in 2005. Not that you think any englishman would be able to read it, seeing as it was written in french...



I think you will find there are an awful lot of places we, once free of the European superstate, can get our hands on just about anything we want, and if that means we have to go back to how we got it the way we did up to 1972, well, so be it.



It might even boost our engineering sector



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield

[Nick]

Yeah ...



One thing I wonder though.



Given Boris just said were walking away if draft proposals are not sorted by June, does that mean they can sing for the six months money they expect from us for that time period?

It does in my book. Once we start trading on WTO rules the money should stop.

[Nick]

Travelling nick, nice week skiing in Austria. Will get back to you after. But just read your linked article. 11b is only part of the story the rest of the story brings it to 8.6b

The average is used beacuse some payments are volatile and the net contribution changes yr on yr. Previous 4yr avg 7.6b. But no where near 11b.

No access to links but the estimate cost of brexit todate to the uk economy is 200b or something of that order. I've posted this before with the article. That's more than the uk has contributed in total from when it joined decades ago.

Finally on regulatory bodies, you do need them, without eurathom how will you get nuclear fuels. Theres estimates going around that the uk will need about 50,000 customs officials working in an array of roles. All non contributing jobs that only serve to disrupt and delay UK business. What's the cost nick, how many lost billions.

Like I've said brexit is and will continue to be a financial disaster for the uk, but it's about taking back control so that's ok.

The consolation is the uk is also damaging the eu. That will help in trade talks, along with the sh1t talk coming from the uk politicians.

Gerry, how many times. The EU isn't going to lose the 4 year average, they are going to lose contributions at current levels, 11bn. You can fudge it all you want but the EU has lost its second biggest NET contributor and will have to replace it. The remaining net contributors are already telling the EU they can whistle. Think I'll get the popcorn out.

[Stevlin]

Like I've said brexit is and will continue to be a financial disaster for the uk, but it's about taking back control so that's ok.

The consolation is the uk is also damaging the eu. That will help in trade talks, along with the sh1t talk coming from the uk politicians.

Which you constantly bleat.....yet also constantly fail to credibly support your assertions, such as why so many non-EU member states manage their economy perfectly well without being part of such a unique, and absolutely undemocratic  political entity, which in any event, is totally irrelevant wrt arranging  mutually advantageous trade.

 

However, none of that is surprising, as you merely illustrate the veracity of the saying about empty vessels making the most noise.

[GerryT]

Why do you keep mentioning 2017? Look at 2018 as I keep mentioning. It's 11b net.





https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31">https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31">https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31



The ONS reports that the UK government's net contribution to the EU – that is, the difference between the money it paid to the EU and the money it received – was £11.0 billion in 2018 compared with the £20.0 billion theoretical liability.









It's 11bn Gerry as I have shown above, and if you think that is peanuts you're deluded. The UK is the second biggest net contributor, the equivalent to the bottom 18 countries.







OMG Gerry, what do you think we did before the EU?  You think we need an internationally recognised body to manage our own fishing waters? No, those wishing to fish our waters need to have a deal with us. Believe it or not we can fish our own waters.



As for aviation, having spoken to the General Manager of KLM UK and Ireland (Bénédicte Duval) I think I am in a better position to post on this than you. She quite clearly told me Brexit will not affect flights one single bit. We simply revert back to the agreements that were set up just after WWII. But you comfort your self with believing the UK will crumble without your precious EU.



Medicines: The EU is a minion when it comes to drugs, the USA owns this market and I'm pretty sure we can sort something out there.







You said..." As a financial exercise Brexit has been shown to be a disaster for the UK". Has been you said. That means it has happened, and when I show the evidence that a disaster hasn't happened you just move the goalposts. Make your mind up Gerry, has there or hasn't there been a financial disaster?



We all know you are desperate for it all to go tits up Gerry, when it doesn't are you just going to crawl back under a rock and pretend you didn't say any of these things?

Travelling nick, nice week skiing in Austria. Will get back to you after. But just read your linked article. 11b is only part of the story the rest of the story brings it to 8.6b

The average is used beacuse some payments are volatile and the net contribution changes yr on yr. Previous 4yr avg 7.6b. But no where near 11b.

No access to links but the estimate cost of brexit todate to the uk economy is 200b or something of that order. I've posted this before with the article. That's more than the uk has contributed in total from when it joined decades ago.

Finally on regulatory bodies, you do need them, without eurathom how will you get nuclear fuels. Theres estimates going around that the uk will need about 50,000 customs officials working in an array of roles. All non contributing jobs that only serve to disrupt and delay UK business. What's the cost nick, how many lost billions.

Like I've said brexit is and will continue to be a financial disaster for the uk, but it's about taking back control so that's ok.

The consolation is the uk is also damaging the eu. That will help in trade talks, along with the sh1t talk coming from the uk politicians.

[Nick]

No it's not 11b, the link I posted admitted it failed to capture payments direct to the UK. Full facts below captures these numbers, they say in 2017 8.9b  less the direct payments (2016 was 2.3b) so your 11b is just nonsense. Of course you could put up a link showing the detail. But you can't, it never happened.



https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/">https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/">https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Why do you keep mentioning 2017? Look at 2018 as I keep mentioning. It's 11b net.





https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31">https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31">https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31



The ONS reports that the UK government's net contribution to the EU – that is, the difference between the money it paid to the EU and the money it received – was £11.0 billion in 2018 compared with the £20.0 billion theoretical liability.

The EU has a gdp and as you say its a sum of the member states. I didn't say it's a country, but the EU as a trading block using the strength of its market 18.6T soon to be 16T is the second largest trading block in the world. The EU produces, buys and trades all the time, something the EU will soon realise. So what if the Eu market drops by 2.8T, it's still a 16T block and one of the big 3. What the EU actually looses is 7b to 8b, peanuts. DOn't you understand the co-op concept.

It's 11bn Gerry as I have shown above, and if you think that is peanuts you're deluded. The UK is the second biggest net contributor, the equivalent to the bottom 18 countries.

Again your missing the point, the UK needs internationally recgonised bodies, it currently uses the EU, it needs to set it's own up and have them recognised. Such as Eurathom, Fisheries, IP, Food safety, Aviation, Medicines etc... there's over 40. And countries around the world wn't be saying "agh your grand, no problem". It's not extra regulation it's about having basic internationally recgonised bodies. The UK doesn't have them.

OMG Gerry, what do you think we did before the EU?  You think we need an internationally recognised body to manage our own fishing waters? No, those wishing to fish our waters need to have a deal with us. Believe it or not we can fish our own waters.



As for aviation, having spoken to the General Manager of KLM UK and Ireland (Bénédicte Duval) I think I am in a better position to post on this than you. She quite clearly told me Brexit will not affect flights one single bit. We simply revert back to the agreements that were set up just after WWII. But you comfort your self with believing the UK will crumble without your precious EU.



Medicines: The EU is a minion when it comes to drugs, the USA owns this market and I'm pretty sure we can sort something out there.

Egh... you were in the EU in 2019, so why would there be a problem. You have left but from a business perspective you don't leave until Jan 2021. Lets wait until say 2025 before we start claiming the UK is a glowing light.

You said..." As a financial exercise Brexit has been shown to be a disaster for the UK". Has been you said. That means it has happened, and when I show the evidence that a disaster hasn't happened you just move the goalposts. Make your mind up Gerry, has there or hasn't there been a financial disaster?



We all know you are desperate for it all to go tits up Gerry, when it doesn't are you just going to crawl back under a rock and pretend you didn't say any of these things?

[GerryT]

How strange, I went back to 2018, the most recent fully costed year. You go back to 2014-2017, the days of 7.8b, guess what Gerry, they ain't loosing 2014-2017 money, they're loosing 2018-2019 money. 11b

No it's not 11b, the link I posted admitted it failed to capture payments direct to the UK. Full facts below captures these numbers, they say in 2017 8.9b  less the direct payments (2016 was 2.3b) so your 11b is just nonsense. Of course you could put up a link showing the detail. But you can't, it never happened.



https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/">https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/">https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

You're just making a fool of your self. The EU doesn't have its own GDP, it doesn't produce, buy or sell anything, I'm sure you've been told this before. The 18.8T is made up of all 28 EU members GDP added together, of which the UK's portion was 15.2%. So what you call the EU's GDP will fall by 15.2%, get it? That is 2.8 ish Billion which amazingly match's the UK GDP for 2017.

The EU has a gdp and as you say its a sum of the member states. I didn't say it's a country, but the EU as a trading block using the strength of its market 18.6T soon to be 16T is the second largest trading block in the world. The EU produces, buys and trades all the time, something the EU will soon realise. So what if the Eu market drops by 2.8T, it's still a 16T block and one of the big 3. What the EU actually looses is 7b to 8b, peanuts. DOn't you understand the co-op concept.

Jeez !!  We DON'T want all the EU regulations, that's what we voted to get away from and we certainly don't need to replicate them. We have been aligned for 45 years and the UK operates above and beyond the levels the EU require.

Again your missing the point, the UK needs internationally recgonised bodies, it currently uses the EU, it needs to set it's own up and have them recognised. Such as Eurathom, Fisheries, IP, Food safety, Aviation, Medicines etc... there's over 40. And countries around the world wn't be saying "agh your grand, no problem". It's not extra regulation it's about having basic internationally recgonised bodies. The UK doesn't have them.

Financial disaster? Really?



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/economy-beats-gloomy-forecasts-to-be-third-fastest-growing-in-g7-52nvmw36s">https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/econ ... -52nvmw36s">https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/economy-beats-gloomy-forecasts-to-be-third-fastest-growing-in-g7-52nvmw36s



As for unemployment, it's a right mess!!



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50820280">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50820280





Seems you're worried about having a new SUPERPOWER on your doorstep Gerry.

Egh... you were in the EU in 2019, so why would there be a problem. You have left but from a business perspective you don't leave until Jan 2021. Lets wait until say 2025 before we start claiming the UK is a glowing light.

[papasmurf]

I like Boris and reckon that he is the best PM available,

I have to assume you are joking.

[T00ts]

Magnanimous? Not from where I'm standing.



The die is cast  they are still doing their worst to tie us to their strings,the common market was a fair idea that turned in to project euromonster.

 :hattip I find it so difficult to relate to HQQ's viewpoint. It is just so completely alien to me.

[cromwell]

Up until now the EU has been quite magnanimous in wanting to give us as reasonable a future relationship as possible without actually assisting in Brexit making the UK better off.  They did this despite our government, under both Theresa May and Boris Johnson, blowing hot and cold and continually holding its toys over the side of the pram.



The EU suffering hardship and division as a result of our departure is likely to change all that.  As I said before, Brexiters and Eurosceptics have scapegoated the EU for as long as I can remember but soon the UK will be the EU's scapegoat and we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves.

Magnanimous? Not from where I'm standing.



The die is cast  they are still doing their worst to tie us to their strings,the common market was a fair idea that turned in to project euromonster.