Impending machete ban.

[Unlucky4Sum]

IPP sentences were abolished over 10 years ago.

If you're referring to the case I believe you are, he was given that sentence for a total of 44 offences incl that violent assault on a kid to steal his bike while on parole for another offence and has since being impisoned committed further offences in jail including drugs.  link

You really want him living in your street or are you saying he should be released to live in someone else's street?

[cromwell]

No one has argued that the ban will absolutely stop zombie knife crime like no one has pretended that our forearm laws have ended gun crime.

But taking the latter we have far far less gun crime than countries with much looser laws and it's sensible to project that our knife crime laws are the same. 

The ban on Zombie knives resulted from a Labour police commisioner led campaign resulting in the Conservative Government 2016 legislation after the death of Stefan Appleton.  It's just not sensible to suggest that 2016 legislation was put through in those busy parliamentary times with cross party support if there was no need and that as you suppose there were enough laws.

You can read about the cross party support here https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-07-18/debates/688b6bb4-d602-497b-99df-ce8a268e0a72/DraftCriminalJusticeAct1988(OffensiveWeapons)(Amendment)Order2016?highlight=zombie#contribution-16071833000005

Unfortunately the THEN definition had the "images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence." requirement which became a loophole.

So this latest legislation closes that loophole.  Good.  Why you want it left open is more than somewhat surprising.

How anybody in a court could be of the opinion that a zombie knife have any use other than violence and that is a loophole it's not it's an absurdity.
There was massive knife crime in Scotland decades ago which stopped when a judge imposed exemplary sentences.
To imagine legislation is all framed for the good and not what was required should acquaint themselves with the last time labour were in govt and Blunketts massively flawed ipp laws which sees one person who engaged in criminal activity (stealing a bike) still imprisoned now indefinitely.
Meanwhile scrotes are literally getting away with murder.

[Unlucky4Sum]

No one has argued that the ban will absolutely stop zombie knife crime like no one has pretended that our forearm laws have ended gun crime.

But taking the latter we have far far less gun crime than countries with much looser laws and it's sensible to project that our knife crime laws are the same.  

The ban on Zombie knives resulted from a Labour police commisioner led campaign resulting in the Conservative Government 2016 legislation after the death of Stefan Appleton.  It's just not sensible to suggest that 2016 legislation was put through in those busy parliamentary times with cross party support if there was no need and that as you suppose there were enough laws.

You can read about the cross party support here https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-07-18/debates/688b6bb4-d602-497b-99df-ce8a268e0a72/DraftCriminalJusticeAct1988(OffensiveWeapons)(Amendment)Order2016?highlight=zombie#contribution-16071833000005 

Unfortunately the THEN definition had the "images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for the purpose of violence." requirement which became a loophole.

So this latest legislation closes that loophole.  Good.  Why you want it left open is more than somewhat surprising.

[cromwell]

Stop and search would not (and has not) stopped the sale of zombie knives.

The new law is about stopping the sale of such knives not the carrying or use.

It's far more efficient to cut off the supply rather than chase around trying to remove them from the streets. The supply will always out strip the capacity to remove.

Sure the little knife wielding toerags will just switch to butcher knives or actual cabbage harvesting machetes - but that's not a reason not to try to remove them.

The op moaned about the effect on law abiding citzens who need their big knives for gardening or whatever.
There will be no effect on their ability to buy big gardening knives and use them for their intended purpose.

Anyone wanting a big intimidating knife for intimidating people will now find it a little but harder to get hold of one.

Aye and gun licensing laws hasn't stopped gun crime has it?
That was introduced to strictly regulate the sale of firearms but people still manage to obtain firearms and if the supply of zombie knives is lucrative enough they will still be available.

[BeElBeeBub]

And for the umpteenth time were existing legislation enforced,stop and search and exemplary sentencing utilised we wouldn't need this legislation would we.

Stop and search would not (and has not) stopped the sale of zombie knives.

The new law is about stopping the sale of such knives not the carrying or use. 

It's far more efficient to cut off the supply rather than chase around trying to remove them from the streets. The supply will always out strip the capacity to remove.

Sure the little knife wielding toerags will just switch to butcher knives or actual cabbage harvesting machetes - but that's not a reason not to try to remove them. 

The op moaned about the effect on law abiding citzens who need their big knives for gardening or whatever. 
There will be no effect on their ability to buy big gardening knives and use them for their intended purpose.

Anyone wanting a big intimidating knife for intimidating people will now find it a little but harder to get hold of one. 

[cromwell]

And for the umpteenth time they weren't working enough and it was too much use of resources to achieve patchy results

Which you have no evidence to support that

[Unlucky4Sum]

And for the umpteenth time were existing legislation enforced,stop and search and exemplary sentencing utilised we wouldn't need this legislation would we.

And for the umpteenth time they weren't working enough and it was too much use of resources to achieve patchy results

[cromwell]

Well someone could make a zombie knife using a later surrendered one to make a mould.  But I suggest we're talking about seeking a serious reduction in knife fatalities not preventing the most ardent knifers making one - that would then be imprisonable under the new legislation.

And for the umpteenth time were existing legislation enforced,stop and search and exemplary sentencing utilised we wouldn't need this legislation would we.

[Unlucky4Sum]

And with an angle grinder cut out the serrated bits and just the same

Well someone could make a zombie knife using a later surrendered one to make a mould.  But I suggest we're talking about seeking a serious reduction in knife fatalities not preventing the most ardent knifers making one - that would then be imprisonable under the new legislation.

[cromwell]

Except you didn't.  That steak knife you linked to has nothing like the ripping serration edges a zombie style knife or machete has which make them far more lethal.

Your example:



Zombie knife

And with an angle grinder cut out the serrated bits and just the same

[Barry]

I think I agree — it seems that governments think passing legislation is enough, rather than really doing anything and using common sense and applying the laws already in place...

Exactly. What we need is more stops and searches to locate knives, machetes and any other weapons so that those criminals can be taken off the streets.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Because as I've already shown you can freely and easily buy something as bad  . .

Except you didn't.  That steak knife you linked to has nothing like the ripping serration edges a zombie style knife or machete has which make them far more lethal.

Your example:



Zombie knife

[cromwell]

The existing law was sufficient" for stopping people carrying the zombie knives (or almost any knife or weapon) about in public.

There already were mandatory sentences for possession (second offence mandatory 6 months) or threatening (6 months minimum) going up to 4 years.

However, the knives themselves were not illegal to sell or own and the police were powerless to stop someone selling knives (unless they sold to under 18). The police couldn't even stop someone having a large collection of such knives at home - they would have to catch the person carrying it in public.

Imagine if shotguns were freely availble to buy for any adult and it was only an offense to carry one in public without a good reason. We'd see a lot more shotguns being used by gangs.

*in the sense that it gives the police the power to do something - I make no comment on the effectiveness of the policing.

This update to the law is about stopping the sale of such knives.

And as I demonstrated a replacement just as deadly is freely available.
as to you saying this in your post and that bit in bold it should be an offence to use Americanisms on a UK forum. 

adult and it was only an offense to carry one in public without a good reason.

[cromwell]

But that existing legislation left much to judgement and such could be questioned in court leading to cases being dropped, scarce court time being wasted etc.

No situation is ever perfect but what we have now is less imperfect than it was.  Why do you object to that?

Because as I've already shown you can freely and easily buy something as bad and unless you are a butcher on your way in to work you have no reasonable purpose to having it in your possession ergo it is an offensive weapon.

How can anyone can pretend existing legislation left much to judgement,some scrote in possession of a large zombie knife"your honour I was carrying it down the high street in case I needed to remove some stones from a horses hoof and also if there was a sudden influx of zombies which I needed to protect myself from" 
utter cobblers and as I said politicians showboating.

[patman post]

As you say we differ and I maintain all that could be achieved with existing legislation.

I think I agree — it seems that governments think passing legislation is enough, rather than really doing anything and using common sense and applying the laws already in place...