Freedom of Speech and of Thought Being Destroyed

[Nick]

Weird?  So is it weird when people go to a church or mosque to pray, when it's easier to do it at home?  Now, I'm not religious, but even I know that's quite normal.

People won't go to church with the express intention to intimidate other people, that is exactly what her intention is. 

[patman post]

1. So "visibly praying" is a crime now? WTF?

To be fair, that would make sense

2. So does that mean known activists for any cause are causing harassment and intimidation to anyone they're protesting?

3. Arrest any protesters outside the Houses of Parliament for causing distress and intimidation to politicians, just for standing there silently and praying? You've taken police state to a new level

4. You mean as opposed to the sexual perverts who get abortions for the fun of it as a "ritual" ^? And find it fun to deride and mock others for fighting against that?

https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2024/02/09/the-satanic-temple-asserts-medication-abortion-is-a-religious-right/

5. I'd say they're pretty sick people myself

1. Depends on context, when, where, and whether it contravenes legal injunctions/restrictions.
2. Depends on context, when, where, and whether it contravenes legal injunctions/restrictions.
3. Has that happened? I've not noticed any silent protesters standing outside HoP.
4. Not against anyone campaigning for what they believe, but if they intentionally break the law to make themselves martyrs, I'm content if the law obliges.
5. Unfortunately, there's a lot of sick people around...

[Unlucky4Sum]

And could you describe this "visual effect" she might have on the women, by standing silently?  And can you describe how prayers are mouthed differently to normal speaking?  I mean, if a lunatic stood there and mouthed quietly to themself about losing their marbles, would that have the same effect?

Most people can lip read to a quite surprising extent.

So if someone clearly mouthed to a vulnerable woman 'I pray for your soul because you are committing an evil sin and will be cursed forever on this earth' then that might be less than good.

We don't know the details of what Isabel Vaughan-Spruce did, we do know the police withdrew the charge but the principle stands.  You don't have to speak to harass, you don't have to go to the vicinity of an abortion clinic to pray and if you do go to one where there is a history of staff and vulnerable being harassed you are very likely to be doing it for less than good purpose.

[Unlucky4Sum]

Weird?  So is it weird when people go to a church or mosque to pray, when it's easier to do it at home?  Now, I'm not religious, but even I know that's quite normal.

No because people go to a church for a feeling of community, to share common thoughts and to hear religious sermons.  That they tend to also pray at same time is hardly surprising.

But the street outside an abortion clinic subject to a PSPO because of a history of harassment of vulnerable women and staff is not a church.

[Unlucky4Sum]

So "visibly praying" is a crime now? WTF? . . .

If you do it contrary to a specific PSPO in a way that would harass vulnerable women then yes.  And it should be.

You appear to be saying it's OK to harass vulnerable women as long as you don't hit them or say anything to them.   

[Scott777]

She must have a weird view of her God then.  One that can only hear prayers in Birmingham and not in Redditch. 

Weird?  So is it weird when people go to a church or mosque to pray, when it's easier to do it at home?  Now, I'm not religious, but even I know that's quite normal.

[Scott777]

Exactly.  She was there for the visual effect she would have on the women attending that clinic.  Something she couldn't do from home.

And seems several posters above haven't worked out that while she may have been silent she may very well have been very visibly praying in the direction of the other women, maybe even mouthing the words.  She had to be doing something as how else was it known she was praying.

And could you describe this "visual effect" she might have on the women, by standing silently?  And can you describe how prayers are mouthed differently to normal speaking?  I mean, if a lunatic stood there and mouthed quietly to themself about losing their marbles, would that have the same effect?

[Nick]

I'm pretty sure under the laws in England, the police can use just about any old law on the books to criminalise anything if they want. They could probably have her done for loitering if they really wanted to after all.

They've even begun picking people up off the streets under old vagrancy laws from what I read a while back, looks like the 19th century is making a comeback with a vengeance

As my dad always calls it, it's the ways and means act. They'll find the ways and means to lift you. 

[Borg Refinery]

I'm pretty sure under the laws in England, the police can use just about any old law on the books to criminalise anything if they want. They could probably have her done for loitering if they really wanted to after all.

They've even begun picking people up off the streets under old vagrancy laws from what I read a while back, looks like the 19th century is making a comeback with a vengeance

[Nick]

It's distasteful and I might not like it myself, but standing there and silently praying is not a crime by any definition of the word.

I suspect when people's favourite protest movements start getting shut down, people will finally lash out and say this is unjustified as a crackdown on civil liberties, but it will be too late

Seeing actual perverts and other assorted prats getting nicked might be a start rather than focusing on silent prayer, maybe not releasing loads of criminals would help too? Just a thought of course. Whatever next? Arresting samaritans and criminalizing them while rewarding thieves?

Are we debating he right to do what she is doing or does she have the right to do it? 2 different arguments I think. 

[Borg Refinery]

She can do that from home, yet she chooses to do it in the face of women already in distress.

It's distasteful and I might not like it myself, but standing there and silently praying is not a crime by any definition of the word.

I suspect when people's favourite protest movements start getting shut down, people will finally lash out and say this is unjustified as a crackdown on civil liberties, but it will be too late

Seeing actual perverts and other assorted prats getting nicked might be a start rather than focusing on silent prayer, maybe not releasing loads of criminals would help too? Just a thought of course. Whatever next? Arresting samaritans and criminalizing them while rewarding thieves?

[Borg Refinery]

Exactly.  She was there for the visual effect she would have on the women attending that clinic.  Something she couldn't do from home.

And seems several posters above haven't worked out that while she may have been silent she may very well have been very visibly praying in the direction of the other women, maybe even mouthing the words.  She had to be doing something as how else was it known she was praying.

So "visibly praying" is a crime now? WTF?

She must have a weird view of her God then.  One that can only hear prayers in Birmingham and not in Redditch.

To be fair, that would make sense

Unless she'd taken trouble to disguise herself, standing as a known and identifiable anti-abortion personality could reasonably be construed as attempted harassment and/or intimidation.

So does that mean known activists for any cause are causing harassment and intimidation to anyone they're protesting?

Arrest any protesters outside the Houses of Parliament for causing distress and intimidation to politicians, just for standing there silently and praying? You've taken police state to a new level

Couldn't she be more good to others by attempting to root out the sexual perverts in her own church...?

You mean as opposed to the sexual perverts who get abortions for the fun of it as a "ritual" ^? And find it fun to deride and mock others for fighting against that?

https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2024/02/09/the-satanic-temple-asserts-medication-abortion-is-a-religious-right/

I'd say they're pretty sick people myself

[Nick]

How about, praying that the unborn children or foetuses do not suffer?

She can do that from home, yet she chooses to do it in the face of women already in distress.

[patman post]

No, you don't have any more evidence than the police.
What does "visibly praying" look like. Is it audible? Can you see the prayer waves leaving someone's head?

Unless she'd taken trouble to disguise herself, standing as a known and identifiable anti-abortion personality could reasonably be construed as attempted harassment and/or intimidation.

Couldn't she be more good to others by attempting to root out the sexual perverts in her own church...?

[Unlucky4Sum]

How about, praying that the unborn children or foetuses do not suffer?

She must have a weird view of her God then.  One that can only hear prayers in Birmingham and not in Redditch.