Brexit post virus?

[cromwell]

There seem to be as many in denial of any kind of problem regardless of the evidence world wide as there are headless chickens. If this virus had invaded more slowly then I would agree, but the speed of travel of people seems to run hand in hand with the spread. I am not a panicker but I am a realist and if we don't move ourselves and rise to the challenge of this it says an awful lot about our worthiness. It is no more helpful in my view to empty the store rooms no matter the needs of all than it is to stand on a soap box denying the tsunami roaring down the street.

 :hattip

[T00ts]

as i said earlier , and deppity said as well , empty unfounded rumours are flying about like wildfire toots as im sure you are aware at the minute.



On various sites i go on , its the same drama queens and attention seekers posting hysterical rumours that were doing the same during the scottish and brexit referendums.



Thats isnt a dig at anyone , im just saying most folk are trying to keep calm and sensible , crack a few jokes , and think of their friends family and neighbours , whle the ususal few bed wetting panic merchants are in meltdown.



what a world.

There seem to be as many in denial of any kind of problem regardless of the evidence world wide as there are headless chickens. If this virus had invaded more slowly then I would agree, but the speed of travel of people seems to run hand in hand with the spread. I am not a panicker but I am a realist and if we don't move ourselves and rise to the challenge of this it says an awful lot about our worthiness. It is no more helpful in my view to empty the store rooms no matter the needs of all than it is to stand on a soap box denying the tsunami roaring down the street.

[Thomas]

Quite  :hattip

member this auld joke borkie?



Wife is worried about the virus , so she just been down the doctors to see what the spot is between her tits.



Shes came back home relieved to be told its her bellybutton. ::

[Thomas]

If it's facts that are needed what about the government commandeering, for that's what it is, Rolls Royce and other engineering companies to tool up to produce ventilation kits and other kit asap?

If the idea of many sick people being denied treatment and probably the most frail ignored completely was only in the panicked imagination, surely government would not be asking for not just ventilation equipment but as many as can be produced.



I see that dear Donald Trump is currently trying to kidnap German scientists who claim to have a vaccine. Not for world aid of course but exclusively for the Americans. Presumably they would then save the USA economy by selling it at a premium to anyone else prepared to accept American world domination. Does he have a white Persian cat?

as i said earlier , and deppity said as well , empty unfounded rumours are flying about like wildfire toots as im sure you are aware at the minute.



On various sites i go on , its the same drama queens and attention seekers posting hysterical rumours that were doing the same during the scottish and brexit referendums.



Thats isnt a dig at anyone , im just saying most folk are trying to keep calm and sensible , crack a few jokes , and think of their friends family and neighbours , whle the ususal few bed wetting panic merchants are in meltdown.



what a world.

[T00ts]

If it's facts that are needed what about the government commandeering, for that's what it is, Rolls Royce and other engineering companies to tool up to produce ventilation kits and other kit asap?

If the idea of many sick people being denied treatment and probably the most frail ignored completely was only in the panicked imagination, surely government would not be asking for not just ventilation equipment but as many as can be produced.



I see that dear Donald Trump is currently trying to kidnap German scientists who claim to have a vaccine. Not for world aid of course but exclusively for the Americans. Presumably they would then save the USA economy by selling it at a premium to anyone else prepared to accept American world domination. Does he have a white Persian cat?

[Thomas]

The latest panic by the doommongers on the scottish sites is apparent chinese and japanese reinfection of survivors.



trolled through the interwebby and it appears to be nothing more than horseshit .

Scientists in and outside China agree that reinfection is a highly unlikely explanation for the patients who retest positive. They say testing errors are more likely to blame — either false negatives that resulted in patients being discharged too early, or false positives when they retested and were taken back into hospital.



Those errors could be attributed to contaminated test samples, human error while taking swabs, or an oversensitive nucleic acid test that detects strands of virus. When a person gets sick with any kind of viral infection, their immune system naturally develops antibodies that should protect them from contracting the illness again after they've recovered.



Even in cases where that immunity wears off, it shouldn't be as quick as within a few days or weeks, said Dr. Keiji Fukuda, director of Hong Kong University's School of Public Health.



"If you get an infection, your immune system is revved up against that virus," he said. "To get reinfected again when you're in that situation would be quite unusual unless your immune system was not functioning right."

[/b]



https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-13/china-japan-korea-coronavirus-reinfection-test-positive">https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/st ... t-positive">https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-13/china-japan-korea-coronavirus-reinfection-test-positive

[Borchester]

Hope you are right borkie.



Rumour and imaginary ghosts seem to be causing more damage at present than the corona virus.

Quite  :hattip

[Thomas]

I don't know what line of country you and Deppity are in Tommy, but I don't think that you need worry overmuch. On second thoughts, worry. You are a married man with children and that is what you are supposed to do. But I reckon that a lot of customers (know in the trade as tight fisted bastards) will take advantage of the current fuss to start haggling over prices. But that is what customers always do. But no one is going to lock down for two months. Pretty soon they will start to feel bored and embarrassed and business will start again.



I am going to start cranking up the maths tuition. Maths is no use to anyone but it is fun, there is almost no outlay and I get paid in cash

Hope you are right borkie.



Im concerned but not overly worried at the minute if that makes sense .Rumour and imaginary ghosts seem to be causing more damage at present than the corona virus.

[cromwell]

Ok, having read that, I'll try and answer objectively.



I think it would be fair to say that article is describing a crises in intensive care, which seems to be what many of the most serious cases require (about 10%), and (in my opinion this is) that existing IC facilities are struggling to cope when they are overloaded, especially at a local level?



But this is still an IC crises, rather than a health crisis. It seems to me that the panic (or severe worry at least) among health professionals is that as the total number of cases rises, that 10% requiring IC grows much larger than the available resources, even in developed economies? This is what is translating into panic among the population. This is why they want to control the total numbers of cases, drastically if necessary. Is this fair so far?



If it is, I would add that much of the problem then is in the reporting, which I have just illustrated via the Guardian article above, which is hyperbolic, full of opinion, and lacking in factual information. As a former NCO and soldier, I have been trained in casualty management, and I can say that likening an intensive care unit to a World War or a battlefield clearing station is over dramatic and is helping no one get at the facts.



If we have a shortage of available IC space, and if we have a concentration of likely victims in particular age and/or health groups, then this needs to be made CLEAR by health professionals and politicians, rather than allowing the media (left or right) to over drama-tise this for political or point scoring ends. There's too much at stake. Allowing people to believe the whole NHS will collapse or that "millions will become sick" without qualifying or factually referencing this is irresponsible and is helping no one.

The problem is not saying that millions would die but it is an ICU problem,Italy is struggling they have twice as many IC beds as us per capita,Germany four times,people who would otherwise be treated in Italy are being stuck in corridors or in areas (not wards) in temporary beds without oxygen or ventilators because there aren't enough and basically left to die a slow and horrible death which quite naturally health care workers find hard day after day.



Millions will get it Boris says but not millions die but a significant number will not get treatment,now if that ain't a great problem what is?



Update

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-to-buy-up-private-hospital-beds-as-covid-19-spreads-in-uk-11957691">//https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-to-buy-up-private-hospital-beds-as-covid-19-spreads-in-uk-11957691 So now the health secretary is comparing it to WW2 panic merchant eh?

[Borchester]

again we are in total agreement deppity.



Our wee business wont survive a two month plus lock down . On a personal level my family could just about survive with savings etc for a couple of month with no income coming in but thats it.



Yet again deppity i think personally all these labour liberal types carping from the sidelines arent doing themselves any favours whatsoever. I think the snp and tory governments are going to come out of this hopefully looking as though they took the difficult decisions and done the right things , while all the luvvies have egg on their faces.



I think i said on here earlier , on the scottish sites i had certain muppets demanding the snp and tory governments lockdown everywhere , and they werent being extreme enough to deal with corona virus. Before that , they had been moaning like feck trump was being too extreme in locking down america.



They are all over the place in desperation.



Thats why in times of crises the tories and the snp are electoral winning machines doing the heavy lifting while labour and liberals are the carpers on the sidelines , folk see this and vote accordingly.



Could you imagine the state things would be in if that muppet corbyn was in charge and his branch manager in scotland ricky leopard? Jo swinson?



Im hoping if we can all get by april then hopefully things calm down , but i think there is going to be mass economic fall out.

I don't know what line of country you and Deppity are in Tommy, but I don't think that you need worry overmuch. On second thoughts, worry. You are a married man with children and that is what you are supposed to do. But I reckon that a lot of customers (know in the trade as tight fisted bastards) will take advantage of the current fuss to start haggling over prices. But that is what customers always do. But no one is going to lock down for two months. Pretty soon they will start to feel bored and embarrassed and business will start again.



I am going to start cranking up the maths tuition. Maths is no use to anyone but it is fun, there is almost no outlay and I get paid in cash

[DeppityDawg]

Does this help you?



https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/12/frontline-doctor-need-take-coronavirus-seriously-12386542/">//https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/12/frontline-doctor-need-take-coronavirus-seriously-12386542/

Ok, having read that, I'll try and answer objectively.



I think it would be fair to say that article is describing a crises in intensive care, which seems to be what many of the most serious cases require (about 10%), and (in my opinion this is) that existing IC facilities are struggling to cope when they are overloaded, especially at a local level?



But this is still an IC crises, rather than a health crisis. It seems to me that the panic (or severe worry at least) among health professionals is that as the total number of cases rises, that 10% requiring IC grows much larger than the available resources, even in developed economies? This is what is translating into panic among the population. This is why they want to control the total numbers of cases, drastically if necessary. Is this fair so far?



If it is, I would add that much of the problem then is in the reporting, which I have just illustrated via the Guardian article above, which is hyperbolic, full of opinion, and lacking in factual information. As a former NCO and soldier, I have been trained in casualty management, and I can say that likening an intensive care unit to a World War or a battlefield clearing station is over dramatic and is helping no one get at the facts.



If we have a shortage of available IC space, and if we have a concentration of likely victims in particular age and/or health groups, then this needs to be made CLEAR by health professionals and politicians, rather than allowing the media (left or right) to over drama-tise this for political or point scoring ends. There's too much at stake. Allowing people to believe the whole NHS will collapse or that "millions will become sick" without qualifying or factually referencing this is irresponsible and is helping no one.

[Thomas]

Here in West Cornwall the supermarket shelves are bare. The government VERY urgently needs to bring in rationing.

Why people are clearing the shelves of bog rolls is a mystery, unless they are full of sh*t.

(There are only 5 cases if Covid-19 in Cornwall and that has not increased for four days.)

Most of my neighbours are either elderly or in an at risk category.

Aye i cannae quite understand this panic buying bog roll.



I will be the first to admit i avoid shops like the feckin plague , especially when my missus is on fire. I havent heard of one single supermarket near me so far though that has empty shelves.There may have been panic buying , but they all seem well stocked and replenished from what i hear.



There has been 121 cases so far and one death in scotland.

[Thomas]

I'm lucky at the moment, because a lot of our business is with the Utilities, the NHS, Local Authorities, Cold Stores and supply side, so we are mad busy because its servicing what is in demand. But that could end at any time, so I share your concerns, and you have my sympathy mate, especially with wages to pay. Its never easy when you have responsibility to employees, especially when they have families too.



The only ray of hope I can offer is that this crises is not a liquidity one like 2008/9, when it was money/credit that was choked off, its a supply and demand disruption, albeit on a large scale. If we can avoid the worsts actions demanded by the knee jerkers and keep industries moving (and in reality we have to or society grinds to a halt within weeks and coronavirus won't be solved by that anyway), then the demand should quickly reassert. Its then a case of how long the supply side needs to catch back up. Say what you like about Trump, but he looks like he will do anything to get re-elected and will not let the US economy go down if he can help it, because that is what is driving worldwide demand at the moment. If China can catch up quickly enough, we might avoid the fall out and a recession. If not, we are all in the sh*t mate.

again we are in total agreement deppity.



Our wee business wont survive a two month plus lock down . On a personal level my family could just about survive with savings etc for a couple of month with no income coming in but thats it.



Yet again deppity i think personally all these labour liberal types carping from the sidelines arent doing themselves any favours whatsoever. I think the snp and tory governments are going to come out of this hopefully looking as though they took the difficult decisions and done the right things , while all the luvvies have egg on their faces.



I think i said on here earlier , on the scottish sites i had certain muppets demanding the snp and tory governments lockdown everywhere , and they werent being extreme enough to deal with corona virus. Before that , they had been moaning like feck trump was being too extreme in locking down america.



They are all over the place in desperation.



Thats why in times of crises the tories and the snp are electoral winning machines doing the heavy lifting while labour and liberals are the carpers on the sidelines , folk see this and vote accordingly.



Could you imagine the state things would be in if that muppet corbyn was in charge and his branch manager in scotland ricky leopard? Jo swinson?



Im hoping if we can all get by april then hopefully things calm down , but i think there is going to be mass economic fall out.

[DeppityDawg]

I was talking to one of our customers the other day deppity , and she is extremely worried. She owns a farm  , rents much of her land to bigger farms around her , and has a mass of holiday cottages , her husband owns a building company.



She has two long term people in her cottages at reduced rate , ie just about covering bills but not making any money , tourism has fallen off a cliff and bookings have been cancelled , she was asking me do i know anything about business rates relief due to the virus , and if the governments both scottish and uk are giving any help , she is worried sick about her income and paying the bills.



Similar story across the board with many other people we know and are acquantied with through networking groups , etc etc.



Theres me and my missus and we have 6 employees. Im fine for this month , sorted for paying bills and wages but next month is a complete unknown to me. I dont know where we will be.



So to me the government  at holyrood and westminster are spot on so far. Keep things ticking over as sensibly as possible , get to easter and kids off school and then see where we all are when we come back.



All these liberal leftie bellends who are all of a sudden experts on viruses and locking countries down need feckin shot in my opinion. They must have egos the size of texas , and the sad fact of the matter a few nitwits are going to believe everything they say and the hysteria they are trying to spread.



If the scottish and english governments close things down too prematurely , and we end up in lockdown for months on end , what then?



People running out of cash , bills no being paid , it wont be the feckin corona virus  worrying the government  .



Im just in shock in what i am reading and seeing at the minute .Some of these cants need a severe kicking.

I'm lucky at the moment, because a lot of our business is with the Utilities, the NHS, Local Authorities, Cold Stores and supply side, so we are mad busy because its servicing what is in demand. But that could end at any time, so I share your concerns, and you have my sympathy mate, especially with wages to pay. Its never easy when you have responsibility to employees, especially when they have families too.



The only ray of hope I can offer is that this crises is not a liquidity one like 2008/9, when it was money/credit that was choked off, its a supply and demand disruption, albeit on a large scale. If we can avoid the worsts actions demanded by the knee jerkers and keep industries moving (and in reality we have to or society grinds to a halt within weeks and coronavirus won't be solved by that anyway), then the demand should quickly reassert. Its then a case of how long the supply side needs to catch back up. Say what you like about Trump, but he looks like he will do anything to get re-elected and will not let the US economy go down if he can help it, because that is what is driving worldwide demand at the moment. If China can catch up quickly enough, we might avoid the fall out and a recession. If not, we are all in the sh*t mate.

[T00ts]

But the figures say "91% of cases are mild"? Are we saying that they need ventilators too? Are you saying that many of the 9% of cases that are serious are staying in hospital even if they've been classed as recovered, and this is what is causing the log jam? Even if they were all in hospital for 8 weeks, its still only 1500 cases at present. Sure, that's bad, but are we saying a modern, developed economy like Italy cannot cope with 1500 cases of pneumonia (if that's even true)?



Lets go back to the beginning. Are any of the figures correct, and how do we know? Who should we believe? Clearly, some don't believe our own government. Predictably, some dredge up their favourite hobby horse to turn this into a political issue, rather than a health issue. And for instance, why should we believe the Guardian or the BBC when they publish hyperbole and opinion, but not the Daily Mail? Isn't funny how the Guardian informs remainers, and suddenly this Brexit government led by Johnson is getting panned as being "wrong" when no one even seems to know what the facts are?



I get everything you say there, Toots. But the argument is running at the fear, reaction and "the enemy of my enemy" level here, and at best, these are all opinions. Including mine, yours and everyone elses. We have people (not just on this forum) demanding kill or cure reactions which we don't even know for sure have worked in either China or Italy, or anywhere else yet, and may result in even further damage that simply cannot be repaired. We need facts, Toots.

Does this help you?



https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/12/frontline-doctor-need-take-coronavirus-seriously-12386542/">//https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/12/frontline-doctor-need-take-coronavirus-seriously-12386542/



Just picked up from another site



Half of those in hospital in Italy with severe pneumonia are under 60. 8% of those receiving coronavirus treatment have died. The first death in Italy was a marathon runner aged 38.