Only one speed

[T00ts]

I'm definitely open to it after the 3 weeks are up. Scott's idea of shileding the elderly and vulnerable whilst everyone else goes back to almost normal is good for the economy and for people's well being. It's not a risk free policy to coop people up in their houses for months on end. There are health issues, both physical and mental with that approach.

It's a bit like the choice when pulling a plaster off your hairy arm. Do it quick and have a short sharp pain all in one go, or do it slowly, drag it out.

It's not my choice for the country.



If the economy is completely ruined, many more will die, Thomas and that is a great concern.

This post made my heart ache, Barry. If I felt sure that my kids would get mild symptoms I would feel easier but the evidence is not what we were told at the beginning. You have had it and claim that many in your family likewise, I don't have that comfort.

[Thomas]

Whoops! I am feeling a bit mischievous today!    :dncg:  The fact still stands though that trying to get big cities under control with a huge closely housed population is a much greater problem than for those with more sheep than people. (Sorry just can't resist the urge today!) Now if it was foot and mouth...   :ZIP:

Three quarters of the countries around the world have a population smaller than englands , and nearly half have populations similar to or near scotlands.



Yep , i can feel it in the air toots , the empire is coming back. Mass renouncing of sovereignty around the world and handing over of control to westminster is just around the corner. :roll:  ::



Even banana republics in africa or the carribean are saying they cant feed themselves , theres more palm trees in some than people , and with no nhs they might all die because of covid 19 , but we would rather that than hand our countries over to the english?

[Barry]

I appreciate  , from reading your posts over the last few weeks , you appear to be at least "open" to the idea of herd immunity as a viable way forward, but it does seem strange the vast majority of scientists , medical professionals , politicians  , health organisations and countries around the world dont?

I'm definitely open to it after the 3 weeks are up. Scott's idea of shileding the elderly and vulnerable whilst everyone else goes back to almost normal is good for the economy and for people's well being. It's not a risk free policy to coop people up in their houses for months on end. There are health issues, both physical and mental with that approach.

It's a bit like the choice when pulling a plaster off your hairy arm. Do it quick and have a short sharp pain all in one go, or do it slowly, drag it out.

It's not my choice for the country.



If the economy is completely ruined, many more will die, Thomas and that is a great concern.

[T00ts]

The sun doesnt shine any better in England than it does across the channel either toots , yet that didnt stop england wanting to leave the eu.



So why should it stop us wanting to leave your much less democratic multi national state , where unlike in the eu , you cant even do us the common courtesy of calling scotland a country?







the same again could apply to you and your pursuit of the crock of gold outside the eu , but again , it didnt stop you voting for "independence".



Seems to be nothing more than english exceptionalism yet again , do as we say not as we do. 8-)







Many countries around europe and the world have similar  populations to scotland , it doesnt seem to be a criteria for sovereignty and independence.



Your little country of england could fit geographically inside your near contintental neighbour france, five times over , The usa has a population 6 times than that of yours , so if"size matters" in the grand scheme of independence ,when is "little england" giving up its independence and following this mythical "british " rule of thumb?

Whoops! I am feeling a bit mischievous today!    :dncg:  The fact still stands though that trying to get big cities under control with a huge closely housed population is a much greater problem than for those with more sheep than people. (Sorry just can't resist the urge today!) Now if it was foot and mouth...   :ZIP:

[Thomas]

Thomas - the sun simply doesn't shine any better north of the border than it does here.

The sun doesnt shine any better in England than it does across the channel either toots , yet that didnt stop england wanting to leave the eu.



So why should it stop us wanting to leave your much less democratic multi national state , where unlike in the eu , you cant even do us the common courtesy of calling scotland a country?

You might hope that a free Scotland would be the crock of gold beyond the rainbow but disillusion could well rapidly follow.

the same again could apply to you and your pursuit of the crock of gold outside the eu , but again , it didnt stop you voting for "independence".



Seems to be nothing more than english exceptionalism yet again , do as we say not as we do. 8-)

Anyway that apart isn't the population of the whole of Scotland substantially less than London alone? It seems to me that most logistics are simpler if that is so. You are comparing apples with eggs - I don't buy it!

Many countries around europe and the world have similar  populations to scotland , it doesnt seem to be a criteria for sovereignty and independence.



Your little country of england could fit geographically inside your near contintental neighbour france , five times over , The usa has a population 6 times than that of yours , so if"size matters" in the grand scheme of independence ,when is "little england" giving up its independence and following this mythical "british " rule of thumb?

[T00ts]

We dont , but that still doesnt mean england is my country?



The uk government constantly refer to the uks four nations , are you saying they are wrong too?



We might not have indy , it doesnt make the uk a country no more than the eu is . Both are multi national entities.



You know all this toots , we have went over it time and again , and over a thousand years of history language and culture wont simply be erased in scotland simply because it makes your belief in the uk as a "nation " uncomfortable.





I dont think it is either , and accept my apology if you thought i was inferring it was. Its a westminster ailment.



As i said  , my countries ( apologies toots , but its simply fact) first minister is coming under criticism too , for following your countries guidance in all this under the four nation approach.



With both hands tied behind our backs , our government is performing better than yours over simple thngs like testing alone. For every 100 people england tests , you know the 6 th biggest economy used to have an empire and all that in the world , wee poor simple scotland is testing 142.



Think what we could do on our own completely free of westminster. :hattip

Thomas - the sun simply doesn't shine any better north of the border than it does here. You might hope that a free Scotland would be the crock of gold beyond the rainbow but disillusion could well rapidly follow. Anyway that apart isn't the population of the whole of Scotland substantially less than London alone? It seems to me that most logistics are simpler if that is so. You are comparing apples with eggs - I don't buy it!   ::

[Thomas]

Well Thomas you missed out the bit(whoever is in power)  and the way China did lockdown is no myth,

I never said it was. You inferred that only totalitarian asian states like china ( south korea)? could have dealt with this in the way scientists and the who are suggesting , when not only germany and norway , wee norway with a population similar to scotland , have dealt much better than england /uk has  , but even trump  , the much ridiculed in the uk media trump , is rubbishing the uk government herd immunity original plan.



I dont think america , norway or germany ar any less democratic than the uk apparently is?

also not that long ago you were assuring me that living in the sixth richest economy and a good health service I hadn't much to fear.

Nope you have misquoted me.



I said if you cant be protected in the so called 6th richest country , economy in the world with their health service which is better ( despite its performance at times) than many countries around the world , you cant be protected.( I didnt allow for the stupidity and indecision of your government compared to others.)



That still stands. You have a better chance of surviving covd 19 in england than most countries around the world ,and i stand by that.



However , the point is why is it the 6th biggest economy in the world successivly falls behind other smaller economies in the first world time and again at times of crisies like this because of the dithering and indecision of its government when  ,as i keep repeating , for its much vaunted so called status , it should be performing among the top 6 countries in the world?

[Thomas]

Aggghhhh!!! You make me want to digitally box your ears with your constant reference to 'your country'. You don't have independence!  :rant:

We dont , but that still doesnt mean england is my country?



The uk government constantly refer to the uks four nations , are you saying they are wrong too?



We might not have indy , it doesnt make the uk a country no more than the eu is . Both are multi national entities.



You know all this toots , we have went over it time and again , and over a thousand years of history language and culture wont simply be erased in scotland simply because it makes your belief in the uk as a "nation " uncomfortable.

I don't think this is a Conservative ailment, we are renowned for holding back in any crisis

I dont think it is either , and accept my apology if you thought i was inferring it was. Its a westminster ailment.



As i said  , my countries ( apologies toots , but its simply fact) first minister is coming under criticism too , for following your countries guidance in all this under the four nation approach.



With both hands tied behind our backs , our government is performing better than yours over simple thngs like testing alone. For every 100 people england tests , you know the 6 th biggest economy used to have an empire and all that in the world , wee poor simple scotland is testing 142.



Think what we could do on our own completely free of westminster. :hattip

[cromwell]

Yet cromwell  , many democracies around europe and elsewhere in the world have responded much quicker and more decisive than the "uk " has done?



Germany and norway for example? This idea put out by the tory party bots online and in the media only asian totalitarian states could respond better , quicker and more decisive to covid 19 due to their controlling nature is a myth. An excuse.



Look , i understand why many in your country feel reluctant to criticise johnson and his government over their response to covid 19. Especialy the reason that brexit still hasnt been enacted and you need him to follow it through.



However this doesnt absolve him and his government of criticism , much if it deserved.



We see again , the much vaunted "6th richest country/economy" on the planet falling quickly on its arse behind many other countries , when it should be doing much better in many ways according to its oft gloatingly broadcast status.



Still ,as i said yesterday , according to the polls so far , covid 19 is having little effect on his popularity in your country , with the much voiced opinion "he is  a plonker ( johnson) but he is our ( Englands) plonker!"



I think he will come out of all this unscathed despite my growing misgivings on the uk governments handling of things.

Well Thomas you missed out the bit(whoever is in power)  and the way China did lockdown is no myth,also not that long ago you were assuring me that living in the sixth richest economy and a good health service I hadn't much to fear.



Brexit is an irrelevance now and the economic fallout will prove it so.

[T00ts]

Yet cromwell  , many democracies around europe and elsewhere in the world have responded much quicker and more decisive than the "uk " has done?



Germany and norway for example? This idea put out by the tory party bots online and in the media only asian totalitarian states could respond better , quicker and more decisive to covid 19 due to their controlling nature is a myth. An excuse.



Look , i understand why many in your country feel reluctant to criticise johnson and his government over their response to covid 19. Especialy the reason that brexit still hasnt been enacted and you need him to follow it through.



However this doesnt absolve him and his government of criticism , much if it deserved.



We see again , the much vaunted "6th richest country/economy" on the planet falling quickly on its arse behind many other countries , when it should be doing much better in many ways according to its oft gloatingly broadcast status.



Still ,as i said yesterday , according to the polls so far , covid 19 is having little effect on his popularity in your country , with the much vocied opinion "he is  a plonker ( johnson) but he is our ( Englands) plonker!"



I think he will come out of all this unscathed despite my growing misgivings on the uk governments handling of things.

Aggghhhh!!! You make me want to digitally box your ears with your constant reference to 'your country'. You don't have independence!  :rant:  Having got that out of the way I do agree that it has been slow hence me starting this thread. I don't think this is a Conservative ailment, we are renowned for holding back in any crisis - it's probably something to do with the Scots!    

[Thomas]

In defence of Boris & co (and this would apply whoever were in power) democracies by design usually take longer to respond to such issues but give me democracy any day.

Yet cromwell  , many democracies around europe and elsewhere in the world have responded much quicker and more decisive than the "uk " has done?



Germany and norway for example? This idea put out by the tory party bots online and in the media only asian totalitarian states could respond better , quicker and more decisive to covid 19 due to their controlling nature is a myth. An excuse.



Look , i understand why many in your country feel reluctant to criticise johnson and his government over their response to covid 19. Especialy the reason that brexit still hasnt been enacted and you need him to follow it through.



However this doesnt absolve him and his government of criticism , much if it deserved.



We see again , the much vaunted "6th richest country/economy" on the planet falling quickly on its arse behind many other countries , when it should be doing much better in many ways according to its oft gloatingly broadcast status.



Still ,as i said yesterday , according to the polls so far , covid 19 is having little effect on his popularity in your country , with the much voiced opinion "he is  a plonker ( johnson) but he is our ( Englands) plonker!"



I think he will come out of all this unscathed despite my growing misgivings on the uk governments handling of things.

[cromwell]

Yes agree with much both posted by Thomas and yourself,this has come as a surprise to so many but there were warnings that these events are a hundred years in the making (on average) and the warning signs from the China outbreak were largely ignored till too late.



In defence of Boris & co (and this would apply whoever were in power) democracies by design usually take longer to respond to such issues but give me democracy any day.



The economies the world over will be hit,the fears over brexit will fade in to insignificance house prices will fall (they were way too high anyway) and we will all have to pay more.



One thing though I hope this results in a long hard look at the NHS on a cross party agenda,yeah the National health service that isn't national at all,trusts galore the folly of pfi



How we can fund it to best serve the people and stop kidding ourselves that it's the one of the best in the world,it ain't though that doesn't reflect on those at the coal face Italy's is much better and still can't cope.



And isn't it funny how we are all relying on so many on lower pay who are generally disregarded,City high flyers,overpaid footie players and celebs can't help much (except pay their fair share) but In some case inform us of their trials and tribulations at this time,really can't and never have been interested.



Lastly John take care of yourself  

[Thomas]

I agree with you Thomas. The trouble is that having lurched into a herd immunity regime we are now half in and half out. I feel like they are trying to lock the stable door too late now. They don't want to come across like a dictatorship so have gone softly softly now it is beginning to back-fire. We are already experiencing more deaths than those reported by China - which I guess we can now realise was massively unreported - and all our assumptions, quite apart from the original one that we wouldn't be affected, have been seen to be misjudged. We have constantly played catch up. We can't stay locked down for a year or more so the need for a vaccine, antibody tests etc becomes vital.  I see it as a race against time now. Whoever finds the vaccine first will gain world domination.

Well  , some are arguing toots that had the uk government acted sooner , and followed more clearly the WHO guidelines , we might be coming out of this quicker.



As you say , we seem to be in some sort of half way house of dithering and indecision that many are arguing is only going to prolong things long term.



As i say , im no expert , but it does appear to seem world opinion is against the last few still standing that are half heartedly supporting this "herd immunity" idea.



The lies coming from uk government ministers mouths like michael gove has been incredible.



There will be political consequences to this afterwards , and nicola sturgeon is coming under massive pressure for following the much ridiculed"four nation " approach to covid 19.



The uk government has been caught with its pants around its ankles , not just medically , but there is growing criticism in the business community of their economic handling of this situation compared to countries like norway or germany.



The "much vaunted" economic help that was issued the other week still hasnt materlialsed for most. For those "furloughing " staff , it will be the end of the month before anyone can even claim never mind receive any money.



A friend who lives in the english west midlands , tried to apply for a business loan under the government scheme to pay wages etc at the end of the month , and has been repeatedly knocked back.



A lot of this so called economic help is going to be too little too late for many.

[T00ts]

Not sure i agree with that article barry.( read most but not all of it , and who the feck is sharon mikhailov?)



Like most folk , i have no medical knowledge , and i certainly have never worked for the SNHS , but you said some thing to me the other day along the lines that the WHO`s Tedros Adhanom had it wrong on the general advice and strategy that they were issuing to the world over covid 19.



The insinuation was the "uk government" and "uk scientists" like whitty and vallance knew best.



"herd immunity" strategy keeps popping up week after week in some form or another  as some" viable strategy backed up by scientific advice."



I would question that barry , with my limited knowledge.



Why is it very few , if any countries around the world are following this "herd immunity " strategy much vaunted initialy by the uk government advisors?( and then quietly dropped , with government lickspittles being sent out to deny it was ever really considered?)



Certainly from what i can see , most countries around the world , and especially in europe , seem to be following the WHO advice of lockdown , test and trace  , while the uk government dithers on a lockdown that isnt really a lockdown ,  , and up till yesterday Scotland was testing far more (42% more) people than your country was.



We have had world leaders , for example from new zealands jacinda ardern , to donald trump , rubbish the "herd immunity " strategy.



I would say trump and ardern have very little in common , certainly politically , and i would also argue there is no world leader more desperate to get his economy up and running than mr Trump. Yet when asked about "herd immunity" as a viable strategy , Trumps retort was..







I appreciate  , from reading your posts over the last few weeks , you appear to be at least "open" to the idea of herd immunity as a viable way forward, but it does seem strange the vast majority of scientists , medical professionals , politicians  , health organisations and countries around the world dont?









https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/1244736103627849730">https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/ ... 3627849730">https://twitter.com/UKDemockery/status/1244736103627849730

I agree with you Thomas. The trouble is that having lurched into a herd immunity regime we are now half in and half out. I feel like they are trying to lock the stable door too late now. They don't want to come across like a dictatorship so have gone softly softly now it is beginning to back-fire. We are already experiencing more deaths than those reported by China - which I guess we can now realise was massively unreported - and all our assumptions, quite apart from the original one that we wouldn't be affected, have been seen to be misjudged. We have constantly played catch up. We can't stay locked down for a year or more so the need for a vaccine, antibody tests etc becomes vital.  I see it as a race against time now. Whoever finds the vaccine first will gain world domination.

[Thomas]

Thought this was a good article from the other day...

Who has the right to decide who lives or dies?

[/b]

We have been told that if UK GDP drops by 6%, more people will die of the consequences than of Covid-19. That is going to happen according to most economic pundits, so amongst all of this we are crashing the economy in order to fight this so called war.



We are playing God in a way never seen before. Of course, this sometimes happens when there is a need for two HDU/ITU beds and only one is free. But never on this scale. And what concerns me is that it is being done on the hoof, there is no deep thought and it is all broad brush strokes affecting individual people, each with an individual story, prognosis and chance of life years ahead of them which is just being ignored.



The ethical dilemmas are just vast. We are crashing the economy for years to come to save hundreds of thousands of lives, ignoring the hundreds of thousands of hidden deaths that will be an inevitable side effect. So as bitter a pill as it is to swallow, should we have approached this differently? Should we have locked down the vulnerable and the elderly two months ago and allowed the virus to exist amongst those who would mainly not be badly affected by it so that they could continue to keep the economy afloat and ensure that we have a health service that we can afford at the end of this thing?

[/b]

I don't know what the answer is, but I am bloody angry at the casualties at the side of the field that are being left because everyone is too busy focusing on the goal at the other end of the pitch.



Dr Renée Hoenderkamp is a GP in North London

[/b]



http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/views/blogs/who-has-the-right-to-decide-who-lives-or-dies/20040524.article">http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/views/blogs ... 24.article">http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/views/blogs/who-has-the-right-to-decide-who-lives-or-dies/20040524.article