What a time to send this letter

[papasmurf]

Joint response to the disgusting letter, British Medical Association (BMA)

Care Provider Alliance (CPA)

Care Quality Commission (CQC)

Royal College of General Practice (RCGP)



https://www.rcgp.org.uk/about-us/news/2020/april/joint-statement-on-advance-care-planning.aspx">https://www.rcgp.org.uk/about-us/news/2 ... nning.aspx">https://www.rcgp.org.uk/about-us/news/2020/april/joint-statement-on-advance-care-planning.aspx



Joint statement on advance care planning

Publication date: 01 April 2020

The importance of having a personalised care plan in place, especially for older people, people who are frail or have other serious conditions has never been more important than it is now during the Covid 19 Pandemic.



Where a person has capacity, as defined by the Mental Capacity Act, this advance care plan should always be discussed with them directly. Where a person lacks the capacity to engage with this process then it is reasonable to produce such a plan following best interest guidelines with the involvement of family members or other appropriate individuals.



Such advance care plans may result in the consideration and completion of a Do Not Attempt Resuscitation (DNAR) or ReSPECT form. It remains essential that these decisions are made on an individual basis. The General Practitioner continues to have a central role in the consideration, completion and signing of DNAR forms for people in community settings.



It is unacceptable for advance care plans, with or without DNAR form completion to be applied to groups of people of any description. These decisions must continue to be made on an individual basis according to need.



This is a joint statement from the following organisations:



British Medical Association (BMA)

Care Provider Alliance (CPA)

Care Quality Commission (CQC)

Royal College of General Practice (RCGP)

[Barry]

But to say as this letter starkly and blatantly does that there are BENEFITS to being left to die in the gutter is a lie too far

True.

It is also so unnecessary as the people suffering from the disease are generally compos mentus and capable of speaking in between gasping for breath.

So, just ask them at the time.

[johnofgwent]

Ffs, its a crude expression. Only you could turn it into a fecking serious response.

donl't start me on blowing smoke up your arse then. THAT was an established medical procedure too.

[Scott777]

I know this view won't be popular, but I'm going to state it anyway. We are in extraordinary times. There could possibly be many arguments over NHS funding and no doubt much political capital is to be made out of this, but the truth is the time for those arguments has passed and they won't solve anything now. I don't think it's a reasonable view that any health service in the world could have been prepared for such a black swan crises like this, and wailing about it solves nothing either. This is a resource crises and the resources we have are close to being overwhelmed, as has happened in other countries.



Nobody wants to make decisions like this, and emotional arguments won't magically create more resources. If you only have one respirator bed and two critical patients, it comes down to the cold hard facts. Who are you going to give it too? The 30 year old with a 75% chance of recovery? Or the patient with other serious conditions whose chance of recovery is 10%? In the end, someone will have to make these decisions, unless or until resources are available to treat everyone.



Sorry. But in an imperfect world there are no perfect solutions.

Don't worry, it's been pointed out by many that we have always made decisions like this - women and children first.

[cromwell]

Sorry Cromwell, maybe that was a careless choice of words. But the point stands. In such circumstances,.I'd far rather someone be "Frank and realistic" with me than blow sugar up my arse. Not everyones preference I know, but it would be mine.

Don't be sorry mate I do actually see the point you're making,hard choices have to be made at times but the way those choices are made do matter.



Many years ago I was at a close relatives deathbed,she was dying of cancer the hospital doctor upped the morphine,I knew it as did my cousin and he knew we knew but she died in peace.



Many years later along came Dr Harold Shipman,the desire to up his death toll and rush to mitigate any further of his type (who only come along rarely) severely  curtailed doctors ability to allow people to die with dignity.



There has been for years an unwritten rule in the NHS not to treat those with learning difficulties with the same care afforded the general population.



Regarding a point Thomas made about us being the worlds 6th economy well we are but doesn't mean we have one of the best health services even Boris addmitted Italy's is much better.



Funny thing is I read some figures earlier and now can't find them about the USA that shows many more younger people are being hospitalised and seriously ill.



I don't and never did believe China's death toll and if you look round it is worldwide,Russia is now in lockdown,these events come along rarely and hopefully as it does affect the whole world the economic fallout may be mitigated .

You cannot foresee something like this unlike the banking crisis which was avoidable.



When someone wrote no one man can change the world didn't take account of some pillock eating a half cooked bat.

[cromwell]

As I said, I already know the welsh nhs response to a leave voter in her 60's dying at the foot of her stairs is to leave her there to die because the ambulance call handler said that she was not a priority when jennifer rang for one when moira fell, knocked herself out, blocked her airway with the blood from the face fractures and stopped breathing on the 13th decmber. so this extension to that policy for the leave voters of maesteg at the top of the deatherendum list comes as no surprise.



But there is a way to do this.



That the NHS comes out and admits that they would be better placed to help others if those about to shuffle off this mortal coil anyway agree to go unaided so others can be treated is one thing.



But to say as this letter starkly and blatantly does that there are BENEFITS to being left to die in the gutter is a lie too far



Mind you, my last instruction to certain friends of mine that if i ever get dragged into UHW to die is that they are  to remove me, at gunpoint if need be, to the side of the A48 to die in the hard shoulder where  a) it is warmer b) it is cleaner and c) you meet a much nicer class of passer-by stands.

 :hattip

[T00ts]

I should think the majority of older folk would give up their place to a younger person. I know I would. It's just a shame that the young feel the need to rub our faces in it ahead of time. We are breeding a race without much empathy and little altruism.

[johnofgwent]

I know this view won't be popular, but I'm going to state it anyway. We are in extraordinary times. There could possibly be many arguments over NHS funding and no doubt much political capital is to be made out of this, but the truth is the time for those arguments has passed and they won't solve anything now. I don't think it's a reasonable view that any health service in the world could have been prepared for such a black swan crises like this, and wailing about it solves nothing either. This is a resource crises and the resources we have are close to being overwhelmed, as has happened in other countries.



Nobody wants to make decisions like this, and emotional arguments won't magically create more resources. If you only have one respirator bed and two critical patients, it comes down to the cold hard facts. Who are you going to give it too? The 30 year old with a 75% chance of recovery? Or the patient with other serious conditions whose chance of recovery is 10%? In the end, someone will have to make these decisions, unless or until resources are available to treat everyone.



Sorry. But in an imperfect world there are no perfect solutions.

As I said, I already know the welsh nhs response to a leave voter in her 60's dying at the foot of her stairs is to leave her there to die because the ambulance call handler said that she was not a priority when jennifer rang for one when moira fell, knocked herself out, blocked her airway with the blood from the face fractures and stopped breathing on the 13th decmber. so this extension to that policy for the leave voters of maesteg at the top of the deatherendum list comes as no surprise.



But there is a way to do this.



That the NHS comes out and admits that they would be better placed to help others if those about to shuffle off this mortal coil anyway agree to go unaided so others can be treated is one thing.



But to say as this letter starkly and blatantly does that there are BENEFITS to being left to die in the gutter is a lie too far



Mind you, my last instruction to certain friends of mine that if i ever get dragged into UHW to die is that they are  to remove me, at gunpoint if need be, to the side of the A48 to die in the hard shoulder where  a) it is warmer b) it is cleaner and c) you meet a much nicer class of passer-by stands.

[Borchester]

Quite even the rabid Tory newspapers are putting the boot in.

Just looking for a new angle. There are only so many stories you can get out of a few oldies laid up with the sniffles.  This business reminds me of when I was a lad and the whole country boxed up for Christmas. Alright up to the actual day, but we spent the following weeks looking for something to do.

[papasmurf]

I thinkits fair to say over the last week or so , the uk government strategy has went to pieces , with many of their own supporters being widely critical of them and how they are handling things going forward.

Quite even the rabid Tory newspapers are putting the boot in.

[Thomas]

Lord give me strength.  :roll:

Wasting your time deppity , its too emotive a subject to talk about with any reason and clarity.



I see the loony lefties and loony righties are out in force , with claim and counter claims , culling all the auld and vulnerable on one side being apparently a good idea , and the other defending them and accusing the scottish /devolved / uk government of crimes against humanity.



There are some good points being made out of all this , and there is no doubt the uk government was out on a limb of its own with this herd immunity strategy.



From what i gather , some countries considered it , but non went ahead ,and even trump said recently that the herd immunity plan was a bad idea that only worked if you like loads of deaths .



For the uk government , reputation , and how they come out of this politically both in terms of inside the disunited kingdom , and outside how they compare internationally , is obviously very important to them. It will be used as a political weapon against them , and the idea the so called 6 th richest economy in the world struggling behind many others countries in terms of coping with the corona virus and being mocked in the process when its all over is something they cant contemplate.



I thinkits fair to say over the last week or so , the uk government strategy has went to pieces , with many of their own supporters being widely critical of them and how they are handling things going forward.



That isnt just the medical side , but its the economic side as well.



We will see how it all ends up. All we can do is batten down the hatches and wait to see what happens.

[DeppityDawg]

Lord give me strength.  :roll:

[papasmurf]

Ffs, its a crude expression. Only you could turn it into a fecking serious response.

I happen to be married to a nurse old enough to have had survival nursing  training. Given the current situation if I get ill I will take my chances staying at home with here.

[DeppityDawg]

Blowing sugar (solution) up someones arse, (pouring it in with a funnel and tube.) is a technique for keeping an injured person alive who can't be fed by mouth. A casualty can be kept alive for days that way until the rescue team arrives.

Ffs, its a crude expression. Only you could turn it into a fecking serious response.

[papasmurf]

Sorry Cromwell, maybe that was a careless choice of words. But the point stands. In such circumstances,.I'd far rather someone be "Frank and realistic" with me than blow sugar up my arse. Not everyones preference I know, but it would be mine.

Blowing sugar (solution) up someones arse, (pouring it in with a funnel and tube.) is a technique for keeping an injured person alive who can't be fed by mouth. A casualty can be kept alive for days that way until the rescue team arrives.