Can Starmer get some rationality into Brexit...?

[T00ts]

With respect toots , i think your view of the political elite and the world belongs in history along with "lese majeste" and absolute monarchy , where blind obediance is demanded and dissent isnt tolerated.



To actually insinuate that a particular state would fall apart without an individual like johnson or sturgeon leaves me breathless in disbelief.The people are the state , not individuals like the first minister or monarchy.



Im not sure though , outwith scottish indy , you equate my "lack of respect" to politicians as something peculiar to glasgow. People across the world share that view , you only have to look on my facebook feed to see that same view shared by french friends of their own politicians.



Many on this forum , like auld borkie in london , or cromwell in manchester , appear to share a similar view as well.



The days of blind obediance and the unquestioned agreement to authority belong in the medieval history books. Had none of our ancestors across the world questioned authority and taken the elite off their pedestals from time to time , we would still be living under serfdom at the bottom of the feudal pyramid.



To your final point , no life wouldnt be dull. A whole new world would open up to debate and become engaged in  , after independence . Has life become dull for you after you half way house brexit?

Oh Thomas I do love your 'with respect' leader.  I like that you are 'breathless with disbelief' and think me far too obedient to matter in the world. I make no apology for the way I am. I do believe in respect for all sorts of people - even you  :hattip   .  Of course there are times for action, but having freely chosen a leader then it is time to follow. If or when the leader proves inefficient or whose actions no longer benefit the electorate then is the time to stand on your soap box for reform. If you are not prepared to be the leader and accept that the buck stops with you (I don't mean you per se) then a follower is all you can be.



I no more advocate blind obedience than you do but I won't condone constant confrontation either. There is always a better way. There has to be cohesion in society otherwise there is no society or civilisation and that inevitably involves leaders of some sort.

[DeppityDawg]

:hattip  ::



Weev no had a good feckin border raid fur years deppity.



First two items on the agenda , strip that edinburgh shithole of the status of scottish capital  , and invade england.



Once england is fully conquered , next on the hit list is those welsh barstewards.



https://pics.me.me/welsh-speed-dating-29103373.png">

 ::  ::  ::

[Thomas]

Sorry Toots, but did you really believe his quaffing Merlot in Glasgow crack?  ::  ::  ::



Anyway, Independence is only the first step for Thomas. Once thats achieved, his plan is to go back to semi-permanent border raiding parties brandishing his claymore and wearing a tam o shanter and a kilt  ::

 :hattip  ::



Weev no had a good feckin border raid fur years deppity.



First two items on the agenda , strip that edinburgh shithole of the status of scottish capital  , and invade england.



Once england is fully conquered , next on the hit list is those welsh barstewards.



https://pics.me.me/welsh-speed-dating-29103373.png">

[DeppityDawg]

It is with a certain amount of relief that I don't live in Glasgow or have your view on the world, but it's certainly interesting. I do wonder, if your wish for independence was achieved, whether you would find life a bit dull.

Sorry Toots, but did you really believe his quaffing Merlot in Glasgow crack?  ::  ::  ::



Anyway, Independence is only the first step for Thomas. Once thats achieved, his plan is to go back to semi-permanent border raiding parties brandishing his claymore and wearing a tam o shanter and a kilt  ::

[Thomas]

It is with a certain amount of relief that I don't live in Glasgow or have your view on the world, but it's certainly interesting. I do wonder, if your wish for independence was achieved, whether you would find life a bit dull.

With respect toots , i think your view of the political elite and the world belongs in history along with "lese majeste" and absolute monarchy , where blind obediance is demanded and dissent isnt tolerated.



To actually insinuate that a particular state would fall apart without an individual like johnson or sturgeon leaves me breathless in disbelief.The people are the state , not individuals like the first minister or monarchy.



Im not sure though , outwith scottish indy , you equate my "lack of respect" to politicians as something peculiar to glasgow. People across the world share that view , you only have to look on my facebook feed to see that same view shared by french friends of their own politicians.



Many on this forum , like auld borkie in london , or cromwell in manchester , appear to share a similar view as well.



The days of blind obediance and the unquestioned agreement to authority belong in the medieval history books. Had none of our ancestors across the world questioned authority and taken the elite off their pedestals from time to time , we would still be living under serfdom at the bottom of the feudal pyramid.



To your final point , no life wouldnt be dull. A whole new world would open up to debate and become engaged in  , after independence . Has life become dull for you after you half way house brexit?

[T00ts]

That will carry on with or without nicola stugeon. As will the welfare of people in your country with or without johnson.







I cant believe you actually think our lives hang by the whim of one human being to such an extent that world will end without them? ::





 ::



Without our dear leaders such as johnson in your country and sturgeon in ours , the world would carry on regardless.



The average glaswegian would still be quaffing copious amounts of merlot ensconced under his gazebo while contemplating the legality of a 30 minute game of croquet.



Wiggles down in  the swamps of lincolnshire would still be pounding the kitchen walls , one hand on his wife sengas throat , shouting "youve spent aw ma money on drink and are still speaking tae me lit a wummin ya ****!"



and borkie will still be down in london consuming the last of last nights beef wellington before a day out in the allotment looking belligerent as ever.





Show me a politician who has earned my respect and i will give it. Until then toots , no one cares. We carry on as ever.

It is with a certain amount of relief that I don't live in Glasgow or have your view on the world, but it's certainly interesting. I do wonder, if your wish for independence was achieved, whether you would find life a bit dull.

[Thomas]

That's where we are so different I think. So Sturgeon has just one job does she? I would hate to have such a lop sided Government. Perhaps devolution was a real misjudgement. Her job is the welfare of the people of Scotland outside and regardless of independence.

That will carry on with or without nicola stugeon. As will the welfare of people in your country with or without johnson.

I can't quite believe that you think otherwise.

I cant believe you actually think our lives hang by the whim of one human being to such an extent that world will end without them? ::

 I don't believe that the world will cope without leaders. Perhaps Scotland would because it's just an overgrown pretty village, :-P , but society has always demanded leaders and anarchy would be the result of a vacuum. I can't go along with the rather gung ho gang. Society needs order if even if they don't believe they do.

I think awe is not what anyone should feel, but respect which is earned is always deserved.

 ::



Without our dear leaders such as johnson in your country and sturgeon in ours , the world would carry on regardless.



The average glaswegian would still be quaffing copious amounts of merlot ensconced under his gazebo while contemplating the legality of a 30 minute game of croquet.



Wiggles down in  the swamps of lincolnshire would still be pounding the kitchen walls , one hand on his wife sengas throat , shouting "youve spent aw ma money on drink and are still speaking tae me lit a wummin ya ****!"



and borkie will still be down in london consuming the last of last nights beef wellington before a day out in the allotment looking belligerent as ever.





Show me a politician who has earned my respect and i will give it. Until then toots , no one cares. We carry on as ever.

[T00ts]

Why?



See this is the naivety kicking in , mere newspaper talk. You seriously think the organs of the brit state are going to fall apart simply because johnson is incapacitated?







I couldnt care less about nicola strugeon , and even less about boris johnson. Sturgeon has one job , and one job only , to achieve scotland independence.



Any thing less is a failure.



Thats the difference i suspect between you and i toots , i believe the world would carry on regardless without politicians. I even agree with auld borkie , at one time many moons ago as a teenager i held them in awe , now , i look down on them.





She is under pressure about the "alec salmond affair" and lack of furthering independence. She knows once coronavirus is out the way , there are severe questions to answer.







undoubtedly i am just questioning your belief remainers have let brexit go.

That's where we are so different I think. So Sturgeon has just one job does she? I would hate to have such a lop sided Government. Perhaps devolution was a real misjudgement. Her job is the welfare of the people of Scotland outside and regardless of independence.  I can't quite believe that you think otherwise. I don't believe that the world will cope without leaders. Perhaps Scotland would because it's just an overgrown pretty village,  :-P , but society has always demanded leaders and anarchy would be the result of a vacuum. I can't go along with the rather gung ho gang. Society needs order if even if they don't believe they do.

I think awe is not what anyone should feel, but respect which is earned is always deserved.

[Thomas]

...and your own personal favourite borkie , those damm foreigners ruling over "british law".



If it was as simple as believing you are out the eu , so it must be so......you could have told us that four years ago , and saved all the hassle.



We could have rounded up the media  , and the government could have ran around telling them to convince you you have left without all the fuss of a referendum.



There was a yank cop on our old forum from texas many years ago called "tantal". He once famously said from experience , "never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers".



I can see what he meant. ::

[T00ts]

I am with you there Toots. Starmer's problem is that the Labour party doesn't really want the EU or a workers' state or communal kitchens with the prols raising their bowls of gruel in homage to the Supreme Leader. It wants the infighting and factionalism and pointless but fun demos that are the party's true raison d'etre.



The left's only real hope is that Boris will be so knocked out by his recent attack of the flu that he won't be able to bounce around the country being Boris, but I doubt that will happen.



I don't know about the other trade deals but my ex son in law was involved in the negotiations over patent rights. They started before the birth of my eldest grandson and, because they were held in Paris and he was allowed to take his family along, he was delighted at the progress of his children's French. The actual negotiations started a couple decades ago and will continue until the collapse of the EU and the establishment of the second English kingdom in France.



We think that we are out of the EU so we are out of the EU. My ex son in law's mates padding out the negotiations over fishing rights so that they can kick up the dust in Paris won't make any odds.

 :hattip

[Thomas]

We think that we are out of the EU so we are out of the EU.

 ::



It must be true borkie , even stevlin has been silent on that never ending whinge of his about paying billions to the eu every year , despite you being "out" the eu and the payments and rule taking continuing.

[Borchester]

Thank you I needed a giggle.  I wouldn't think Starmer's has any more chance than Corbyn did. In the crisis have you forgotten the majority in Parliament?  Starmer has as much 'power' as his predecessor. I suspect he has feet of clay to go with it too.

I am with you there Toots. Starmer's problem is that the Labour party doesn't really want the EU or a workers' state or communal kitchens with the prols raising their bowls of gruel in homage to the Supreme Leader. It wants the infighting and factionalism and pointless but fun demos that are the party's true raison d'etre.



The left's only real hope is that Boris will be so knocked out by his recent attack of the flu that he won't be able to bounce around the country being Boris, but I doubt that will happen.



I don't know about the other trade deals but my ex son in law was involved in the negotiations over patent rights. They started before the birth of my eldest grandson and, because they were held in Paris and he was allowed to take his family along, he was delighted at the progress of his children's French. The actual negotiations started a couple decades ago and will continue until the collapse of the EU and the establishment of the second English kingdom in France.



We think that we are out of the EU so we are out of the EU. My ex son in law's mates padding out the negotiations over fishing rights so that they can kick up the dust in Paris won't make any odds.

[Thomas]

You do make me smile. I have every right to moan about Westminster, I have a vote. I am very consistent. I want what is best for us as I see it and sometimes naivety isn't a bad trait. I do lament (tho not in song you'll be glad to know) Johnson's absence from the front line.

Why?



See this is the naivety kicking in , mere newspaper talk. You seriously think the organs of the brit state are going to fall apart simply because johnson is incapacitated?

If Sturgeon was in the same situation perhaps you would understand - although she is a pale shadow of BJ

I couldnt care less about nicola strugeon , and even less about boris johnson. Sturgeon has one job , and one job only , to achieve scotland independence.



Any thing less is a failure.



Thats the difference i suspect between you and i toots , i believe the world would carry on regardless without politicians. I even agree with auld borkie , at one time many moons ago as a teenager i held them in awe , now , i look down on them.

 I notice this morning that she is either going grey (with worry?) or lightening her hair. It makes her look a bit pale and and even less interesting.

She is under pressure about the "alec salmond affair" and lack of furthering independence. She knows once coronavirus is out the way , there are severe questions to answer.

Postman Pat and Javert are allowed their views just as we are, I have no problem with that. It's who holds the majority that is relevant.

undoubtedly i am just questioning your belief remainers have let brexit go.

[T00ts]

Toots  im the most optimistic person on this forum . There is a difference between pessimmism and realism.





of course. I have never made any secret of that, indeed , you were warned beforehand by all and sundry of the implications brexit would bring for the union. Yet you carried on anyway.



I certainly didnt hold a gun to millions of english peoples heads to vote to leave the eu. It was something you were determined to do , and i was repeatedly told if the union has to be collateral damage , then so be it.







You call me pessimistic....i would call this naive. Pats rambling thoughts above , as well as javerts digs only the other day on this small forum being a case in point.





You arent really being consistent here toots. You say the eu is lacking , talk about people resigning etc , but on the other thread you lament johnson being ill , raab taking over and losing the will to live , and bemoan the lack of talent on the government benches.



Seems the eu isnt the only entity lacking at the minute because of this crises. 8-)







....and you still havent properly left the eu, four years on and counting. No wonder pat sees a glimmer of hope and opportunity among this crises.



Pity we didnt have someone in charge to strike while the iron is hot .

You do make me smile. I have every right to moan about Westminster, I have a vote. I am very consistent. I want what is best for us as I see it and sometimes naivety isn't a bad trait. I do lament (tho not in song you'll be glad to know) Johnson's absence from the front line. If Sturgeon was in the same situation perhaps you would understand - although she is a pale shadow of BJ.  :-P  I notice this morning that she is either going grey (with worry?) or lightening her hair. It makes her look a bit pale and  and even less interesting.  :roll:  Postman Pat and Javert are allowed their views just as we are, I have no problem with that. It's who holds the majority that is relevant.

[Thomas]

My OH insists on calling him Keir Steamer,and I kept saying no it's Starmer.



Then I took the dog for a walk on a frosty morning and having done what needed to be done and poop bag in hand I looked down and thought yeah she's right......it is Steamer.  

We call him Keir "stauner".



A pro european blairite who conveniently has a jewish wife.



Obviously the silent masses are going to flock to him , just as they were going to with milliband in 2015. :roll:



Just shows the complete bubble these london chattering classes live in.



Theywere taking the piss out of him the other day cromwell on some of the scottish sites , apparently he said he has picked ian murray as shadow scottish secretary.



Sir Keir said  "it was a difficult choice"  ::  Until someone  pointed out there is only one labour mp in scotland. Ian murray. ::