This deal is no good either

[Sheepy]

There are no innocents in the game being played out thus far. Lies all lies on all sides. Bending of rules and procedures that have been in existence for 100s of years. No-one comes out of this with a good reputation. It will take the British public a long time to feel any sort of confidence in those who sit in Westminster.

I am trying to find some sympathy for those who never learn,those who think experience isn't as good as what your college professor tells you.

[Cassie]

Everyone is making me laugh today thank goodness. Think about it if parliament insists on the customs union and/or single market, who is going to be cheering to the rafters and laughing most? Remainers followed closely by the EU. It'll be remain.

I doubt they can just tag that on to the deal, it would have to go back to the EU to change it.

[Thomas]

But politics are clearly different in Scotland.

Clearly they are. While we too have marginals , around 30 from memory could change hands easily , scottish elections are never fought on winning the government benches in your parliament as englands constituencies , which over only a mere 40 % of the land of these islands , account for 80 % of the seats in your parliament so always make up the government of this disunited kingdom.



While i took your earlier point about joanna cherry , you dont appear to have taken mine. She may well lose her seat , but it wont be down to what happened in 2017 as you keep referring to. The snp  , indeed any party woukld struggle in any country around the world to match the incredible result of 95 % of scottish seats in 2015 , yet while we were down to around 60% of scottish seats two years later , at present we are polling to take 85% of seats at the next election.



So joanna might not only keep her seat , but increase her majority while our party wipes out yours and your fellow english parties that stand in scotland.



politics in scotland are lineing up each election more along unionism and nationalism , unlike in your country where it is merely some fake excercise in democracy between labour and tory tennis under fptp.



However as i also said earlier , its good to see new political parties and others eating into the lab/tory vote.



Nothing last for ever borkie .

[T00ts]

Surely the EU won't accept an amendment by the House of Horrors to the deal stating that we have to stay in a customs union as that was not what was agree.



Edit: Oh, and Letwin  :kikass:  :kikass:  :kikass:  :kikass:  :kikass:  x several million. Not enough pages in the forum for the right amount of emojis.

 Everyone is making me laugh today thank goodness. Think about it if parliament insists on the customs union and/or single market, who is going to be cheering to the rafters and laughing most? Remainers followed closely by the EU. It'll be remain.

[Cassie]

Surely the EU won't accept an amendment by the House of Horrors to the deal stating that we have to stay in a customs union as that was not what was agree.



Edit: Oh, and Letwin  :kikass:  :kikass:  :kikass:  :kikass:  :kikass:  x several million. Not enough pages in the forum for the right amount of emojis.

[T00ts]

  , if the argument is the leave campaign can use any means possible, looking for obscure ways to interpreter laws and having them tested to me would be hypocritical if those same people would deny parliament ignoring the referendum, which legally is not binding.

There are no innocents in the game being played out thus far. Lies all lies on all sides. Bending of rules and procedures that have been in existence for 100s of years. No-one comes out of this with a good reputation. It will take the British public a long time to feel any sort of confidence in those who sit in Westminster.

[Thomas]

Breaking: Court of Session rejects UKGov call to end case on upholding Benn Act. Lord Carloway continues case until Benn Act is complied with in full - ie. accepting the extension offered. Reserves decision on what date next hearing will be.



4:33 AM - 21 Oct 2019

[/b]

[Borchester]

Tell me borkie , doesnt england have any marginal seats , or tories elected on small majorities? Do the tories care about how marginal their majority is in various seats in england as long as they hold the seat?



Of course they dont.

It does and there are and the problem is that marginals are usually fought and won by young(ish) hopefuls. And because they are young the MPs don't die off. Which means no by elections and no chance for Boris to pick up a few extra seats.



Most general elections hinge on a few marginals changing hands. I live in a solid Labour constituency and my MP could walk down the street eating a roast baby and she would still get in. Go a couple of miles up the road and the local conservative MP could advocate hanging for parking offences and the electorate would think silly old sod and still re elect him. So the next election will really about getting the 50 odd marginals to change hands. If that happens next time the Tories may end up with a 100 seat majority. Or something like that.



But politics are clearly different in Scotland.

[Thomas]

I totally agree, it's why I point out if the court rules Johnson requests an extension the only thing he should do is send a request or resign if his principals say otherwise. This nonsense of two letters and no signature. Really what are the EU to think, it's like a scene from a really bad Monty python film.



What's your prediction. I think Bercow will allow the vote and JOhnson will get a majority, there may be a slight extension to allow EU and UK to get ready but brexit for End of Jan. Then the fun starts trying to negioate a future deal, we'll be her 10 to 15yrs discussing that  

Scotland to have another indy ref in 2022 and NI will have a border poll in 2024

I have no idea what will happen gerry , however as i said the snp should now use their considerable political leverage in scotlands interests.



We could shaft labour , shaft english remainers , help northern ireland and the majority in england and wales brexit  , help the eu get this settled and most important get the door open for scotland  escaping.



I can ssure you i wont be here discussing brexit for the next ten to 15 years , if scotland becomes indy then i wont be giving the slightest feck what england or anyone else does over brexit . :hattip

[GerryT]

The government in england have had no legal obligation to continue with brexit from day one gerry. However , having legal obligations isnt the same as having both political and moral obligations.



..and sometimes the latter often overrides the former.



I predict the scottish courts will review johnsons letters , at best either ignore it or rule he hasnt broken any scottish laws , or at worst give him a small slap on the wrist.



Either way no matter what the judges say , the brexit march wont be stopping anytime soon , and you and i both know it.

I totally agree, it's why I point out if the court rules Johnson requests an extension the only thing he should do is send a request or resign if his principals say otherwise. This nonsense of two letters and no signature. Really what are the EU to think, it's like a scene from a really bad Monty python film.



What's your prediction. I think Bercow will allow the vote and JOhnson will get a majority, there may be a slight extension to allow EU and UK to get ready but brexit for End of Jan. Then the fun starts trying to negioate a future deal, we'll be her 10 to 15yrs discussing that  

Scotland to have another indy ref in 2022 and NI will have a border poll in 2024

[Thomas]

The snp have 35 votes and plenty of political leverage here to my mind. They should offer up their votes to the highest bidder in return for a second indy ref , legally binding of course.



Labour arent going to do anything but keep kicking the can down the road , blocking brexit at every turn , and sitting on their hands unles they are offered a second brexit referendum. They know they are toast in england at the next election , so they wont want one anytime soon , which means the paralyses continues till 2022 at latest.



The snp could help northern ireland england and wales all get what they want while enacting their manifesto promise to hold another indy ref .Scotland gets  another indy ref , england and wales brexit , and northern ireland the backstop.



Everyone happy except english remainers and who cares about them,? :hattip

[GerryT]

Good grief Barry don't encourage him! We were told it would be enacted, not just once but subsequently at the next GE by the both main parties. It was never represented to us the people that matter, that it was advisory. This is just another fake memory of thwarted remainers!

    , if the argument is the leave campaign can use any means possible, looking for obscure ways to interpreter laws and having them tested to me would be hypocritical if those same people would deny parliament ignoring the referendum, which legally is not binding.



Anyway, a point made earlier by borchester

As far as I can see, Mrs May's deal meant that there were grey  areas where EU law over rode UK law.



BoJo's deal means that the conflict between the two systems is restricted to Ulster. Otherwise and else where UK law reigns supreme.



Ulster has a population less than 3% that of the UK as a whole, so to my way of thinking we have gotten more than 97% of what we want, which suggests that Boris has gotten a good deal.

The original EU offer was for NI only, that was available to the UK a yr ago. But the DUP wouldn't accept that and T.May was forced to ask for a full UK withdrawal arrangement or loose her majority. Now that Johnson has gone back to a NI only "backstop" he has lost the support of the DUP. You can't credit Johnson with T.May's idea.

[Thomas]

If he complied with the law, the referendum was legally not binding so the govt have no legal obligation to continue with brexit.



Either you want the letter of the law or the spirit of the law.

The government in england have had no legal obligation to continue with brexit from day one gerry. However , having legal obligations isnt the same as having both political and moral obligations.



..and sometimes the latter often overrides the former.



I predict the scottish courts will review johnsons letters , at best either ignore it or rule he hasnt broken any scottish laws , or at worst give him a small slap on the wrist.



Either way no matter what the judges say , the brexit march wont be stopping anytime soon , and you and i both know it.

[T00ts]

Quite true, Gerry. The government can vote to remain tomorrow - if that is their wish. It was an advisory referendum, after all, so it would solve everything in one fell swoop.  

Good grief Barry don't encourage him! We were told it would be enacted, not just once but subsequently at the next GE by the both main parties. It was never represented to us the people that matter, that it was advisory. This is just another fake memory of thwarted remainers!

[Barry]

If he complied with the law, the referendum was legally not binding so the govt have no legal obligation to continue with brexit.



Either you want the letter of the law or the spirit of the law.

Quite true, Gerry. The government can vote to remain tomorrow - if that is their wish. It was an advisory referendum, after all, so it would solve everything in one fell swoop.