Coronavirus being left off english death certificates

[papasmurf]

You come across as just trouble-making for the sake of it.

You may think that.  I of course, could not possibly comment.

[Barry]

Its a familiar pattern from the defenders of the tory faith.



Questions raised about the reliability of uk covid 19 figures.........oh look , china `s figures are a sham.



questions raised about the reliability of english death certificates......oh look , the doctors arent doing their jobs. ::

You come across as just trouble-making for the sake of it.

The fault for the deaths lies in the virus, not in politics. You will do all you can to deride the government, but no one including Starmer, or the Political pundits have a real solution.

There's only one route, protect the old and infirm as far as possible. Let the fit become immune. People die, sorry.

[Javert]

For balance, we should  probably say that clinicians, after getting experience of many patients with Covid-19 (and other parallel conditions), should be in a reasonable position to make a judgement as to whether Covid-19 was a contributor or the main cause of death.



Obviously this doesn't meant that everyone who died who happened to have a cough can be classified as Covid-19, but at the moment it's way too far the other way, with doctors scared to put Covid-19 even when the person has the bingo full house of symptoms.

[Thomas]

Its a familiar pattern from the defenders of the tory faith.



Questions raised about the reliability of uk covid 19 figures.........oh look , china `s figures are a sham.



questions raised about the reliability of english death certificates......oh look , the doctors arent doing their jobs. ::

[Thomas]

The lockdown may decrease the peak of the graph, but whether it decrease the area under the graph is very debatable.

I think we have to leave it to doctors as to what they put on death certificates, not politicians.

Read the articles barry. Dont just listen to me or javert , its all across the interwebby doctors are being put under severe pressure from nhs trusts in england withthe insinuation its coming down from the top (politicians) "discouraging " attributing deaths to covid 19 on english death certificates.

We have now written a formal pre action letter to the NHS Trust which is discouraging doctors from attributing deaths to Covid-19. We ask it to change its guidance and review all affected death certificates.

[/b]



Both javert and i have commented on it  .



Blaming doctors for not putting covid 19 on death certificates in light oif information coming out wont wash , nor will it get the uk government off the hook..

Matt Hancock: Report the true death toll from COVID-19.



Leaked guidance from an NHS hospital trust reveals that doctors are not being required to report COVID-19 as the cause of death for patients. Here's what the guidance says:



'Doctors are asked to use the standard MCCD (Medical Certificate of Cause of Death) form to certify death. 'Pneumonia 'or 'community acquired pneumonia' are acceptable at 1(a) on the MCCD. There is no requirement to write COVID 19 as part of the MCCD. It may be mentioned at 1(b) on the form, should the doctor wish.'



The guidance can be seen here. The Good Law Project has instructed a legal team to write a letter to the hospital trust to ask them to withdraw this guidance urgently. You can read the letter here.



The government's daily figures for the number of deaths from COVID-19 are based on what is reported on death certificates. If doctors are not required to write COVID-19 anywhere on the death certificate, then we have no way of knowing if those figures are correct.



The Health Secretary Matt Hancock needs to act to ensure all COVID-19 deaths are recorded and reported properly. He should investigate what advice is being given out to doctors by all hospital trusts.

[/b]



https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/">https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/

[Javert]

what do you mean stop us going above france ; we are above france .No one takes the uk governments official grim reaper body count serious









.



https://time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/?xid=tcoshare">https://time.com/5823382/britain-corona ... d=tcoshare">https://time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/?xid=tcoshare



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV3bCqcWkAA3e5c?format=jpg&name=small">

I agree - but that is partly my point, there are many cases of Covid-19 in hospital and death that weren't detected as a positive test result so aren't counted in the "official" number even when the clinicians are very sure that the person has it.



Then you have to take into account all the deaths in the community.



But that is the point, we are already above France, but they are showing graphs every day with us below France.  No doubt they will claim that France does the same thing and only shows positive test results in those daily numbers, but the reality is that many more people are affected and dying than what is shown on those graphs.

[Thomas]

good article. One of many across the internet pilloring the uk government and its failure or slowness to act on coronavirus.



As i said yesterday  ,the criticism is gathering pace big time....

Every Thursday evening for the past month, the streets of the U.K. have erupted with noise as people stand on doorsteps or balconies, clapping or banging pots and pans, in a weekly sign of appreciation for healthcare workers.



But many doctors, nurses and carers say they don't want applause—they want better testing and equipment. The U.K. has more than 100,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19, making it the sixth-worst affected in the world—but its real number is widely believed to be far higher due to a shortage of test kits. And more than 14,500 people are confirmed to have died in U.K. hospitals from COVID-19, putting it behind only the U.S., Italy, Spain and France. That number, too, is an underestimate: the U.K.'s official statisticians suggested Tuesday that the real number could be as much as 15% higher, due to a combination of delayed reporting of deaths, and the fact that those who died in nursing homes and private residences are not included in official figures. Although daily deaths in British hospitals appear to have flattened over the last week, there is uncertainty over the real figures, and experts worry the U.K could soon overtake its neighbors. A senior government health adviser has warned the U.K. could end up being the "worst affected country in Europe," while a British former WHO official has questioned the "system errors" that "led us to have probably the highest death rates in Europe."

[/b]



the uk government have handled it very badly....

As other European countries have started lifting their lockdowns, the U.K. announced Thursday it would be prolonging its own for at least another three weeks. Although, like in other countries, popular support for the government has skyrocketed during the crisis, politicians are now coming under fire for shortages in personal protective equipment for healthcare workers and tests—shortages that experts say could have been avoided if the government had followed WHO advice. "The government was slow to act, didn't give coronavirus the priority and attention it deserved and has made some significant mistakes," says Professor John Ashton, a former regional director of public health in England. "They've handled it very badly."

[/b]





https://time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/?xid=tcoshare">https://time.com/5823382/britain-corona ... d=tcoshare">https://time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/?xid=tcoshare

[Barry]

The lockdown may decrease the peak of the graph, but whether it decrease the area under the graph is very debatable.

I think we have to leave it to doctors as to what they put on death certificates, not politicians.

[Thomas]

I don't know if it's an attempted (and for sure futile) short term cover up to stop us going above France or whatever in some grim league table, or whether it's more to do with some boffins insisting on "data purity" and we should only have 100% confirmed positive test cases in the stats.

what do you mean stop us going above france ; we are above france .No one takes the uk governments official grim reaper body count serious

The U.K. has more than 100,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19, making it the sixth-worst affected in the world—but its real number is widely believed to be far higher due to a shortage of test kits

[/b]

And more than 14,500 people are confirmed to have died in U.K. hospitals from COVID-19, putting it behind only the U.S., Italy, Spain and France. That number, too, is an underestimate: the U.K.'s official statisticians suggested Tuesday that the real number could be as much as 15% higher, due to a combination of delayed reporting of deaths, and the fact that those who died in nursing homes and private residences are not included in official figures

[/b].



https://time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/?xid=tcoshare">https://time.com/5823382/britain-corona ... d=tcoshare">https://time.com/5823382/britain-coronavirus-response/?xid=tcoshare



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV3bCqcWkAA3e5c?format=jpg&name=small">

[Javert]

I have been trying to point this out on Twitter for ages and I have personal experience of this in my family.



The Goodlaw project are also on it as they have also been contacted by whistleblowers saying that doctors are being discouraged from mentioning Covid-19 on death certificates even where they are 100% or at least 99.9% certain that it was a contributing factor.



I'm not really clear why they are doing this because it will for sure cause a scandal later when it inevitably comes out.



I don't know if it's an attempted (and for sure futile) short term cover up to stop us going above France or whatever in some grim league table, or whether it's more to do with some boffins insisting on "data purity" and we should only have 100% confirmed positive test cases in the stats.



To me this doesn't make sense because a doctor on the BBC on Thursday confirmed, in line with personal experience and anecdotes, and discussions with doctors that I've had, that the test is only 75% accurate, and there are a lot of false negative results, especially when the person comes to hospital after already being sick for a week or more.



75% is actually even less than what I feared, so I hope she was exagerating.



In fact, come to think of it, this might be why the government is so keen to cover this up - if people realise that the test doesn't work properly when you are only bringing people to hospital after a week, people might starting awkward questions about why it's the policy to stay at home till you're almost dead.



For clariy, the Covid-19 antigen tests has a significant false negative rate, and that rate increases a lot after being symptomatic for a week or so - this is mainly because your immune system will already have killed most of the virus in your nose and throat, and it will now be deep in your lungs.

[Thomas]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV4HMrfX0AIixEC?format=jpg&name=900x900">

A whistleblower has told @Channel4News

 they fear Coronavirus is sometimes entirely left off death certificates in care homes and in the community, meaning the true number who die from the virus may never be properly recorded.

[/b]

The whistleblower, who is deeply involved with the registration of deaths within the South of England, said they feared the true number of deaths in care homes was equal to the number of hospital deaths in their region in the last week.

[/b]

Whistleblower told Channel 4 News they felt:

 

*GPs were under too much pressure sometimes taking "the easy option" in omitting Coronavirus from death certificates

 

*GPs were not putting the "actual cause" of death on some certificates

 

*GPs on occasion resorting to "guesswork"

[/b]

The Whistleblower raised concerns about the accuracy of official death statistics in their region of England.

[/b]



https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1249787270292480000">https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1249787270292480000





Dont forget , the chinese are bad though and cant be trusted! :thup: