Coronavirus being left off english death certificates

[Thomas]

Your manipulation of the facts is insidious and annoying.  You're welcome to continue with your fantasy.   :fpigs:

Where have i manipulated facts ?



The story is very short , its very easy to follow if you can read and understand what is being said.



Its not my fault you are that silly you want to start arguing with a story , when we all know you cant disprove it , and make yourself look a total tool in the process.

[Scott777]

No im not. You made a statement , you cant back it up , and are floundering around using every diversion you can in the process , while i stand toe to toe with you and stick to my guns.









I agreed with the story. You didnt , so you need to show us where mr siddique is wrong , and you cant.







Quite obviously you can call it a conclusion or whatever you like , but mr siddique  , according to the story , as the coroner ,  named covid 19 penumonia as one of three causes of death , which you disagreed with , but cant prove why he is wrong.





Its there in black and white in the story. I havent invented it  .







Then prove it wasnt a contributing factor. You are merely saying you disagree with the guy in the story , but then not proving why he is wrong outwith becasue you say so. I say you are wrong.



Go back and read the 7th paragraph and you will see he mentions covid 19 penumonia as one of three factors as cause of death. he elaborates further in the next paragraph.



Its not that difficult to read scott. You seem to have great difficulty in accepting it becasue it doesnt suit your "wacky conspiracy narrative".







im not wrong , and im not right .



This isnt about me.



This is a story barry posted , and you , and you alone are questioning the story , and the competence of the coroner in the story because you dont like the fact covid 19 has been put down as a C.O .D.



You havent been anywhere near mr saddique or mrs smith in real life , and know no more than anyone else on this forum , yet you try and spin some wacky conspiracy theory out of it because that what you do all the time on this forum.



They`re all out to get you scott. :roll:

Your manipulation of the facts is insidious and annoying.  You're welcome to continue with your fantasy.   :fpigs:

[Thomas]

You are going round in circles, over and over again.

No im not. You made a statement , you cant back it up , and are floundering around using every diversion you can in the process , while i stand toe to toe with you and stick to my guns.

Yes, you definitely reached a conclusion - that CV19 was a contributing factor.

I agreed with the story. You didnt , so you need to show us where mr siddique is wrong , and you cant.

Mr Saddiques did note state that was his conclusion.

Quite obviously you can call it a conclusion or whatever you like , but mr siddique  , according to the story , as the coroner ,  named covid 19 penumonia as one of three causes of death , which you disagreed with , but cant prove why he is wrong.

You keep making this assumption.

Its there in black and white in the story. I havent invented it  .

He obviously decided "CV19 positive pneumonia" was a 'cause of death' on the certificate, which does not mean CV19 was a contributing factor.

Then prove it wasnt a contributing factor. You are merely saying you disagree with the guy in the story , but then not proving why he is wrong outwith becasue you say so. I say you are wrong.



Go back and read the 7th paragraph and you will see he mentions covid 19 penumonia as one of three factors as cause of death. he elaborates further in the next paragraph.



Its not that difficult to read scott. You seem to have great difficulty in accepting it becasue it doesnt suit your "wacky conspiracy narrative".

But because you can't admit you are wrong, your slippery twisting a turning and evasion and backtracking are all you have.

im not wrong , and im not right .



This isnt about me.



This is a story barry posted , and you , and you alone are questioning the story , and the competence of the coroner in the story because you dont like the fact covid 19 has been put down as a C.O .D.



You havent been anywhere near mr saddique or mrs smith in real life , and know no more than anyone else on this forum , yet you try and spin some wacky conspiracy theory out of it because that what you do all the time on this forum.



They`re all out to get you scott. :roll:

[Scott777]

I havent reached any conclusion.



We are discussing mr saddiques conclusion in the story , not mine. Im not a coroner.

You are going round in circles, over and over again.  Yes, you definitely reached a conclusion - that CV19 was a contributing factor.  Mr Saddiques did note state that was his conclusion.  You keep making this assumption.  He obviously decided "CV19 positive pneumonia" was a 'cause of death' on the certificate, which does not mean CV19 was a contributing factor.  But because you can't admit you are wrong, your slippery twisting a turning and evasion and backtracking are all you have.

[Scott777]

Even if that's true, so what?  If that person was probably going to survive for many more years until they got Covid-19, that's still a death caused by Covid-19.



I know you want to find a reason to claim that Covid-19 is being massively exaggerated so that you can then claim it's all a conspiracy to introduce martial law of the corporate elite liberal whatevers, but for the minute the issue is clear as I know people who've been in hospital with it and died with it, and you can't deny that the all cause mortality rate numbers have started a massive spike - look at the graph - it's already the biggest spike since the  2015 flu cases and flu would normally be going away at this time of year, not to mention, that already huge spike is only for data up to April 3.



If Covid-19 didn't cause all those extra deaths, or at least most of them, what did?

Please don't assume to know that I want.  I want to know the truth.



I don't agree with your assessment, about people who would have survived.  Imagine that Covid-19 is merely a trigger.  There may also be many triggers that might make you very ill, if you have a faulty system.  It is possible that your own immune system is killing you, triggered by Covid-19.  That's important, because you have to find a solution.  Removing CV19 from the equation may change very little.  But stopping all the self-abuse may make all the difference.

[Thomas]

All you need to do is state the specific symptoms that define Covid-19.

We dont need to state the specific symptoms because the specific symptoms , or my definition of covid 19 are an irrelevance to the discussion at hand.( javert humoured you earlier in the thread)



Merely yet another one of your diversions.



You are the one bleating about why you dont like mr saddique putting covid 19 as a C.O.D

 It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

Trying to divert your failing argument and conspiracy theory into what "my" interpretation of what covid 19 pneumonia is  , or what specific symptoms there are is an irrelevance to this case.



Mr saddique was satisfied in the story to state covid 19 pneumonia , in his opinion , was a C.O. D. So you need to tell us why he is wrong , not the other way around.



Im not making a contrary claim , im taking the story at face value ,you are the one arguing against it.

[Thomas]

Yeah, sure, it's me who keeps diverting.  And yet you STILL haven't explained your conclusion, and refuse to say which part of his statement backs up your claim, and still refuse to define "Covid-19 positive pneumonia", which is clearly the source of your claim.  You've got nothing.

I havent reached any conclusion.



We are discussing mr saddiques conclusion in the story , not mine. Im not a coroner.



The argument is you disagree with mr saddiques conclusion ,regarding covid 19 being one of the three C.O.D announced by this coroner , yet so far have failed to prove why he is wrong......"except because you say so"!

[Javert]

Fair enough.  However, it is possible that Covid-19 ONLY affects people with immune deficiency and/or old age.  Children can have immune deficiency for all sorts of reasons - vitadmin D deficiency (especially among black peeps), lack of exercise, junk food, air pollution, radiation from technology, anxiety...... .  Covid-19 may be nothing more than a trigger for a faulty immune response.  The problem is, the media aren't reporting the whole truth.

Even if that's true, so what?  If that person was probably going to survive for many more years until they got Covid-19, that's still a death caused by Covid-19.



I know you want to find a reason to claim that Covid-19 is being massively exaggerated so that you can then claim it's all a conspiracy to introduce martial law of the corporate elite liberal whatevers, but for the minute the issue is clear as I know people who've been in hospital with it and died with it, and you can't deny that the all cause mortality rate numbers have started a massive spike - look at the graph - it's already the biggest spike since the  2015 flu cases and flu would normally be going away at this time of year, not to mention, that already huge spike is only for data up to April 3.



If Covid-19 didn't cause all those extra deaths, or at least most of them, what did?

[Scott777]

you obviously know better than the medical profession scott. Its just all one big conspiracy abut a virus that doesnt exist isnt it? :roll:  ::

Back the ad hominem attacks and strawmen, then.   :clp



All you need to do is state the specific symptoms that define Covid-19.

[Scott777]

Clearly , in this case , covid 19 by mr siddiques announcement is a contributing factor , one of three he mentions.

Yeah, sure, it's me who keeps diverting.  And yet you STILL haven't explained your conclusion, and refuse to say which part of his statement backs up your claim, and still refuse to define "Covid-19 positive pneumonia", which is clearly the source of your claim.  You've got nothing.

[Thomas]

  Also, there is no specific set of symptoms that specify Covid-19.

you obviously know better than the medical profession scott. Its just all one big conspiracy abut a virus that doesnt exist isnt it? :roll:  ::

[Thomas]

You cannot avoid the word significant.  If it was a contributing factor (but not significant), then it was an insignificant factor.



So, was that the part where you concluded it was a significant factor, or not?  And was it specifically "COVID-19 positive pneumonia" that led you to this conclusion?

Rubbish.



Yet more diversionary nonsense.



The crux of the debate in this thread between us doesnt hinge on your use or misuse of terminology.



This was your original post in reply to barrys story.

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.  It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

Nothing mentioned about significant factors.



You were arguing against "blaming" covid 19 for this ladies death when she was elderly and had underlying health issues.



i replied.

it says the second swab established she had covid 19. Are you suggesting they omit this from the death certificate because she had a history of other health problems?

you then retorted...

  Should they put Virus X on every death cert.?  Someone who falls off a ladder?  Or just the cases where it was a contributing factor?

With the insinsuation should we be putting covid 19 on death certificates or as cause of death when there are /were other factors at play.



This is when you introduced the words contributing factor.



Clearly , in this case , covid 19 by mr siddiques announcement is a contributing factor , one of three he mentions.



the crux of my next reply was as follows...

You appear to want to hide covid 19 from this particular case because it doesnt suit your narrative.

you then introduced the words Significant contributing factor in youtr next reply...

If Covid-19 wasn't a significant contributing factor, it absolutely should not be on the cert.  Why should it?

The whole basis of your argument is the fact you dont believe covid 19 should be on the death cert/C.O.D announcement as it is only one of three or more factors.



Clearly , in the story , mr saddique makes covid 19 in the 7 th paragrph a C.O.D. Wether you personally wish to use the terms contributing factor or signifcant contrbuting factor is irrelevant to the debate.



Mr saddique is saying it was a factor. You disagree , but cant prove why it shouldnt be , and resort to empty diversions and word games as ever.

[Scott777]

Death certificates have to be signed off and approved by more than one person normally, and can be challenged or changed.  That's one of the reasons why the data on death certificates comes with a much longer time lag.



It's unlikely someone would be having Covid-19 on their death certificate if the only evidence was a sneeze and runny nose - that's not the point.  There are a whole list of Covid-19 symptoms - the more of them you have, the more sure the doctor can be.  Doctors can also take into account known exposure to others who tested positive (e.g. living in the same house as them), and the timing of onset of symptoms.



Doctors are not stupid - they can figure out what is likely and no likely.

Current rules are not the normal rules on death certificates.  Also, there is no specific set of symptoms that specify Covid-19.

[Scott777]

You added the word significant in your third reply on page 4 to me regarding barrys post.



I said it was one of three contributing factors mr siddique put down , and you can add the word significant all you like either way.

You cannot avoid the word significant.  If it was a contributing factor (but not significant), then it was an insignificant factor.



So, was that the part where you concluded it was a significant factor, or not?  And was it specifically "COVID-19 positive pneumonia" that led you to this conclusion?

[Scott777]

I think you know very well what I meant - in the cases where people get very seriously ill, this is what happens.  Many of the people who get it don't progress to that stage because their body fights it off and their immune system does not go into ARDS and other side effects which then spread to other organs.  For the unlucky ones, this is what happens.



Also, before saying that it only affects old people, we should keep in mind that based  on current known data (which I'm sure will be pointed out is not 100% accurate quite obviously at this stage), if everyone in the UK was to get Covid-19, it would result in the deaths of several hundred perfectly fit and healthy children.  That might not be a high risk for each individual child, but when you scale up a very small risk over millions of people, you get a lot of deaths.

Fair enough.  However, it is possible that Covid-19 ONLY affects people with immune deficiency and/or old age.  Children can have immune deficiency for all sorts of reasons - vitadmin D deficiency (especially among black peeps), lack of exercise, junk food, air pollution, radiation from technology, anxiety...... .  Covid-19 may be nothing more than a trigger for a faulty immune response.  The problem is, the media aren't reporting the whole truth.