Coronavirus being left off english death certificates

[Scott777]

The coroner makes it clear covid 19 is one of three things which is the cause of death  in paragraph seven ,

Yes, he does, because that's what is recorded.  It is accepted as "cause of death" on the certificate.  But that doesn't mean it was a contributing factor, because by definition of the regulations, "if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID-19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give 'COVID-19' as the cause of death."



If you spend a second to even attempt to understand what this is saying, you may understand that a person with Covid-19 symptoms, (which might include a cough, a runny nose, a sneeze, a headache), may not even have Covid-19, but may be recorded with Covid-19 on the certificate.  How man times do you have read the same stuff before you actually understand it?

[Scott777]

When Covid-19 reaches later stages, it causes major inflammation in the lungs.  

No, Javert, it doesn't.  Many people have it and have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPTOMS WHATSOEVER.  So how can you make such a blatantly general statement?

[Scott777]

It does if you actually read the story instead of playing word games and offering hyperbole. I even highlighted which paragraphs to read.

You're the one playing games.  I refuse to read the rest of your post, because your very first sentence is bollox.  You have yet to say which sentence shows that having Covid-19 MUST contribute to a persons death.

[Thomas]

If the life was shortened by Covid-19 then it should be mentioned on the death certificate.  Having CPOD does not mean that you are going to die tomorrow.  If you cath Covid-19 and then die, the cause of death is not CPOD, unless the doctor has a strong case to suggest that you would have died that same day anyway from CPOD.

Tell scott.



He doesnt appear to be able to read a story or understand an argument.



The coroner makes it clear covid 19 is one of three things which is the cause of death  in paragraph seven , and further elaborates in para 8 of barrys story.



Im merely reading it like everyone else.



All of a sudden i am engaged in a circular argument with a guy who is a complete conspiracy theorist and totally in denial about all things covid 19 in practically every thread on this forum .( again!)

[Javert]

Thanks for the condescension.



Having read it AGAIN, the paragraphs DO NOT help determine either the definition of "covid 19 pneumonia", nor that it was a significant contributing factor.

Do learn to read.

When Covid-19 reaches later stages, it causes major inflammation in the lungs.  This inflammation is not actually caused by the Covid-19 itself, which often has already been eradicated by your immune system, but it's caused by your immune system going into overdrive and causing a lot of collateral damage in your lungs.



Your lungs will present black on an X ray or CAT scan which normally signifies some kind of Pneumonia.  This type of viral pneumonia does not respond to antibiotics.  The only way to treat it is to help with breathing using any and all necessary methods and wait to see if the body recovers or not.



In the early stages of this epidemic, many patients might have been classed as "Pneumonia" on various documents without specific reference to Covid-19, and I suspect that's still happening even today.

[Javert]

it says the second swab established she had covid 19. Are you suggesting they omit this from the death certificate because she had a history of other health problems?

If the life was shortened by Covid-19 then it should be mentioned on the death certificate.  Having CPOD does not mean that you are going to die tomorrow.  If you cath Covid-19 and then die, the cause of death is not CPOD, unless the doctor has a strong case to suggest that you would have died that same day anyway from CPOD.

[Thomas]

It's nice to know you can eventually reach the crux of a point.  You are literally saying that testing positive for it means that it must have been a factor.  BUT IT DOESN'T.  And that's the point you seem incapable of understanding.

It does if you actually read the story instead of playing word games and offering hyperbole. I even highlighted which paragraphs to read.



You insist the coroner , who , lets be clear , knows his business better than you , shouldnt have named covid 19 (as one of three reasons) as cause of death , and i simply asked why and you go into meltdown.

[Javert]

Javert,

I don't follow your argument — what are these covert pressures, who's applying them, why would a doctor be persuaded not to complete the certificate to the best of their belief?

I reckon medics would want to up their "Covid count" where possible to add force to their arguments for more resources.

Also, the updated guidance I linked to and cited, seems to encourage doctors to note Covid-19 whenever symptoms are present — even if only suspected.

While it seems probable that not all Covid-19 are being currently included in the totals, I don't see who or what gains from suppressing the information...

Well there are several whisleblowers reporting this to the extent that the goodlaw project has got involved.  Perhaps they are wrong, but it should be investigated.  Further, even if the deaths area all correctly reported, what about the hospitalisations and sick notes and such - it's the same with those, doctors are not allowed to report Covid-19 as the cause of someone being hospitalised without a positive test result - again I was told this by a GP.



The other point about Covid-19 is not just the mortaility rate, it's the fact that we believe so far that a high % of patients require hospitalisation compared to many other diseases - we don't just hospitalise people for a laugh, so it's safe to assume that if those people aren't hospitalised, they might well die, meaning that the death rate would then go up substantially.  Understating this causes later bad data.



That's why, as pointed out by the CMO himself twice last week, we need to be looking at "all cause mortality" and comparing with the same weeks in prior years, and adjusting for age and other factors, to see how many additional excess deaths occurred during this Covid-19 outbreak.



The ONS figures released early last week revealed about 3000 excess deaths, which they claim did NOT mention Covid-19 on the death certificate.  Now, it's been suggested that these are all caused by people being too scared to go to hospital with other conditions.  I am very dubious about that and I believe that a good portion of those other unexplained deaths will turn out to be Covid-19 related in the end - I would hazard that all this will come out in the end in future months.



I wouldn't be surprised if this is also why China had to increase their numbers by 50% recently - probably part of that is that they realised that a lot of people died of Covid-19 that were initially categorised as something else.



Then we have the point that during the early stages of this epidemic, many doctors were not even familiar with the symptoms - I could recount you several conversations with hospital doctors involving my wife, where it became painfully obvious over the course of 8 days that some of the doctors in the hospital had not been trained in how to recognise all the symptoms and signs of Covid-19 yet.  In some ways this isn't surprising because it's a brand new disease that they wouldn't have been trained in.



Of course, I can't prove this, but there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence for it.

[Scott777]

 and they had every right to name covid 19 as one of those factors , as the lady in question tested positive for it.

It's nice to know you can eventually reach the crux of a point.  You are literally saying that testing positive for it means that it must have been a factor.  BUT IT DOESN'T.  And that's the point you seem incapable of understanding.

[Thomas]

I see, so you can't explain where it says the meaning of "covid 19 pneumonia", or that it was a significant contributing factor, but you are able to resort to abusive language.  I can only congratulate you.  Well done.   :clp

More word games.



Your post to barry was based on a complete false premise if you acutally read the story.



Here it is for you , as you are extremely hard of remembering

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.  It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

The false premise in your post was as i have shown , they didnt ( only) blame covid 19 , it was one of three things mentioned by the coroner as the cause of death , and they had every right to name covid 19 as one of those factors , as the lady in question tested positive for it.



My question to you which you then went on to dodge...

it says the second swab established she had covid 19. Are you suggesting they omit this from the death certificate because she had a history of other health problems?

You can play word games and tap dance around questions all day long scott. It does nothing more than make you look dishonest and stupid.



For weeks now you have been in total denial about covid 19 . Some of the things you have said i agreed with  , most i havent , and i said to you at great length you are coming across callous uncaring and totally out there.



You carry on though.

[Scott777]

You can play silly word games all day long , but anyone with an understanding of the english language can understand the cut and thrust of the debate.



You make a statement , i pull you up, you cant back it up , and then run off and play word games and litter the thread with bullshit and innuendo.

I see, so you can't explain where it says the meaning of "covid 19 pneumonia", or that it was a significant contributing factor, but you are able to resort to abusive language.  I can only congratulate you.  Well done.   :clp

[Thomas]

Thanks for the condescension.



Having read it AGAIN, the paragraphs DO NOT help determine either the definition of "covid 19 pneumonia", nor that it was a significant contributing factor.

Do learn to read.

I can read.



Heres what you said on page four where i engaged you.

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.  It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

my reply.

it says the second swab established she had covid 19. Are you suggesting they omit this from the death certificate because she had a history of other health problems?

and take it from there.



You can play silly word games all day long , but anyone with an understanding of the english language can understand the cut and thrust of the debate.



You make a statement , i pull you up, you cant back it up , and then run off and play word games and litter the thread with bullshit and innuendo.

[Scott777]

You obviously havent read the story. Its in the 4th 5th 6th 7th paragraphs of barrys newspaper picture he quoted.



Do learn to read.



here does this help?

Thanks for the condescension.



Having read it AGAIN, the paragraphs DO NOT help determine either the definition of "covid 19 pneumonia", nor that it was a significant contributing factor.

Do learn to read.

[Thomas]

Its not a very large story scott , i managed to read it in in a minute or so. Or are you thinking up your latest word game now you have been yet again backed into a corner.?

[Thomas]

...and then go back to page four post five and start from there again scott. Just to save you time .



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