Coronavirus being left off english death certificates

[Thomas]

I'm going to bite my lip for a moment.  Please explain what is "covid 19 pneumonia"?  And where does it say it was a significant contributing factor?  It was included as 'cause of death'.  That doesn't automatically mean a "significant contributing factor".

You obviously havent read the story. Its in the 4th 5th 6th 7th paragraphs of barrys newspaper picture he quoted.



Do learn to read.



here does this help?



https://i.ibb.co/S5B4wpB/Covid-19-coroners.jpg">

[Scott777]

The coroner is absolutely saying covid 19 pneumonia is a significant contributing factor. One of three in fact that he mentions , along with hip fracture and old age.



I did actually quote this , yet you again dismiss it.



He put it as a cause of death  , i agree with it , so you need to explain why it shouldnt be on there outwith you dont like to hear about it.

I'm going to bite my lip for a moment.  Please explain what is "covid 19 pneumonia"?  And where does it say it was a significant contributing factor?  It was included as 'cause of death'.  That doesn't automatically mean a "significant contributing factor".

[Thomas]

If Covid-19 wasn't a significant contributing factor, it absolutely should not be on the cert.  Why should it?

The coroner is absolutely saying covid 19 pneumonia is a significant contributing factor. One of three in fact that he mentions , along with hip fracture and old age.



I did actually quote this , yet you again dismiss it.



He put it as a cause of death  , i agree with it , so you need to explain why it shouldnt be on there outwith you dont like to hear about it.

[Scott777]

So when someone such as the lady in question , mrs smith , who has a history of falls , dementia and COPD , dies and also is tested and found to have covid 19 , are you somehow suggesting this isnt recorded or mentioned on the death certificate?

If Covid-19 wasn't a significant contributing factor, it absolutely should not be on the cert.  Why should it?

The coroner clearly said if you actually read the story rahter than reinterpret it to suit your narrative , that the cause of death , and i quote , was covid 19 pneumonia , hip fracture and fraility of old age. So he didnt just blame covid 19 as you suggested.

That's a strawman argument.  I didn't at all suggest he just blamed Covid-19.

You appear to want to hide covid 19 from this particular case because it doesnt suit your narrative.

A pure speculation, which has no bearing on the argument.

[Thomas]

I wonder how long this conversation will last.



Let me put it this way - suppose a highly contagious virus (virus X) went round the whole population and caused common cold symptoms.  Should they put Virus X on every death cert.?  Someone who falls off a ladder?  Or just the cases where it was a contributing factor?

We were told the main danger of covid 19 was that it was life threatening to the old and vulnerable , many whom we know have other existing health problems.



So when someone such as the lady in question , mrs smith , who has a history of falls , dementia and COPD , dies and also is tested and found to have covid 19 , are you somehow suggesting this isnt recorded or mentioned on the death certificate?



The coroner clearly said if you actually read the story rather than reinterpret it to suit your narrative , that the cause of death , and i quote , was covid 19 pneumonia , hip fracture and fraility of old age. So he didnt just blame covid 19 as you suggested.

  It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

You appear to want to hide covid 19 from this particular case because it doesnt suit your narrative.

[Scott777]

it says the second swab established she had covid 19. Are you suggesting they omit this from the death certificate because she had a history of other health problems?

I wonder how long this conversation will last.



Let me put it this way - suppose a highly contagious virus (virus X) went round the whole population and caused common cold symptoms.  Should they put Virus X on every death cert.?  Someone who falls off a ladder?  Or just the cases where it was a contributing factor?

[Thomas]

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.  It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

it says the second swab established she had covid 19. Are you suggesting they omit this from the death certificate because she had a history of other health problems?

[Scott777]

Look at these 2 cases referred to the coroners and see how difficult it is to get any consistency.

Open it in a new tab to see it readable.

https://i.ibb.co/S5B4wpB/Covid-19-coroners.jpg">

Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.  It's unbelievable that they can blame Covid-19 when she was 84 and had chronic COPD.

[Scott777]

I don't disagree, but the point I'm making is that this doesn't mean that there aren't other pressures being brought to bear on doctors to avoid writing Covid-19 on the certificate unless there is a positive test result.  You can see in the entire government spin machine right now that their position is, if the person hasn't tested positive with a swab test, they don't have covid-19.  Talk to any respiritory doctor, immunologist, or epidemiologist and they'll tell you that the test has a significant false negative rate - some doctors are quoting 25%.  Now, this is partly because we are only testing mainly people who've already been sick for a week or so which is where the test becomes a lot less effective.  If we were testing people as soon as they had symptoms, it would be much more reliable.



Put simply, the fact that the official guidance says that they can put it on the death certificate, doesn't mean that they will, especially if they are coming under other covert persuasion like "oh, but there's a one in a gazillion chance that they contracted these 4 other illnesses all at the same time giving the exact same presentation etc" (even in spite of them also testing negative for some of those other illnesses as well.

This part is crucial:



"For example, if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID-19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give 'COVID-19' as the cause of death"



This means, you might have a cold, and die from complications with immune deficiency, and be labelled with Covid-19.

[Barry]

Look at these 2 cases referred to the coroners and see how difficult it is to get any consistency.

Open it in a new tab to see it readable.

https://i.ibb.co/S5B4wpB/Covid-19-coroners.jpg">

[Thomas]

Quite.

The duty of every member of the NHS is to run around screaming that the sky is falling in and that they need more money to prepare the next report that will demand even more money. The idea of the medics playing down any crisis from the bubonic  plague to the shortage of Anusol Plus is frankly laughable.

You keep talking about the nhs demanding more money , but not only have you benefitted from it all your life under the current set up , but you fail to mention the uk spends less per head of popualtion than any other country in the G7 bar one , and only spends around average of the OECD 36 member states.



Also pointing out the tories reduced spending on the nhs down by an all time low when they took over , and only marginally increased it a few years back , way under what labour were spending.



So medics arent asking for the earth , only proper funding.



https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29">https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2019-08-29">https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29

[Borchester]

Javert,

I don't follow your argument — what are these covert pressures, who's applying them, why would a doctor be persuaded not to complete the certificate to the best of their belief?

I reckon medics would want to up their "Covid count" where possible to add force to their arguments for more resources.

Also, the updated guidance I linked to and cited, seems to encourage doctors to note Covid-19 whenever symptoms are present — even if only suspected.

While it seems probable that not all Covid-19 are being currently included in the totals, I don't see who or what gains from suppressing the information...

Quite.

The duty of every member of the NHS is to run around screaming that the sky is falling in and that they need more money to prepare the next report that will demand even more money. The idea of the medics playing down any crisis from the bubonic  plague to the shortage of Anusol Plus is frankly laughable.

[Thomas]

I see they are re naming the COBRA meetings as  "carry on boris rarely attends" ::



Bad day at the office for the tory troops the day.

Boris Johnson skipped COVID-19 meetings and ignored scientists' warnings, The Sunday Times reports

An investigation by The Sunday Times details how the British government failed to understand the severity of the coronavirus threat in the early days as Britain was "on course for one of the worst infections of the most deadly virus in more than a century." The report claims UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson was absent from five meetings on COVID-19 and ignored calls for more protective gear. In response, Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove defended the PM, saying the idea that he skipped meetings that were vital to the government's action is "grotesque.

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[Thomas]

Pat must have missed the opening posts. :roll:

[patman post]

Javert,

I don't follow your argument — what are these covert pressures, who's applying them, why would a doctor be persuaded not to complete the certificate to the best of their belief?

I reckon medics would want to up their "Covid count" where possible to add force to their arguments for more resources.

Also, the updated guidance I linked to and cited, seems to encourage doctors to note Covid-19 whenever symptoms are present — even if only suspected.

While it seems probable that not all Covid-19 are being currently included in the totals, I don't see who or what gains from suppressing the information...