Drink Driving

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

Double post but feel free to reply.

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

Cars were not as safe, and my suggestion is that the limit is raised, not removed. The point is we need more deaths in the uk

The current 80 mg limit with more-or-less mandatory disqualification should stay as it is.  But there's the anomaly that someone who tests at 79 mg has technically not committed any offence while someone with 81 gets banned for a year.  So there should be an additional lower limit of 50 mg which should carry 9 penalty points.  



By the way, I'm a firm believer that much more use should be made of disqualification for driving offences in general.



Driving a car on the road is not a basic right, it's a privilege conferred by the authorities on people who meet certain standards.  People who fail to meet those standards should be be deprived of their driving licence in the same way as people with certain medical conditions are.



Anyway, why do we need more deaths in the UK?  And if you really think we do, would your statement apply in the case of your loved ones or yourself? Think before you open your mouth / touch the keyboard.

[Javert]

^^  None of which changes the point that since those laws were put in place, the like for like road deaths went down significantly .

[Wiggles]

As I put on the old site, and others.



Speaking as a biochemist, I would like to share with you the gist of part of a lecture on brain biochemistry delivered to our class in October 1977



The guest lecturer was Professor Sir Bernard Knight. Then head of Chepstow Forensic Science Lab.



Alcohol does not, actually' get you drunk



Alcohol enters the bloodstream where many organs primarily the liver break it down by oxidation first to acetaldehyde (ethanal) and then to vinegar (ethanoic acid)



The first breakdown product (ethanal) is the one that, on passing first into the bloodstream and thence through the mythical blood brain barrier interacts with the cerebral and cerebellar cells and causes the impairment and other behaviours we label as intoxication.



Ethanal is then further oxidised into ethanoic acid which is a miracle a worker at causing cranial swelling and dehydration at the same time.



It is ethanoic acid which initiates the after effect you know as a hangover, although the swelling, inflammation and dehydration caused by having excess vinegar in your blood is exacerbates by other breakdown products of whatever it was you drank and whatever they were broken down into.



However, no two people have the exact same reaction rate for conversion of alcohol into acetaldehyde, no two people have the same uptake rate into the brain, and no two people have the same conversion rate for the production of acetaldehyde



There is a bell curve obn each stage.



Which means some unlucky bastard gets an instant hangover from sucking a wine gum without ever seeing the benefit of inebriation, some people show signs of inebriation on volumes of alcohol far less than others, and some really unlucky bugger can sink three bottles of hard liquir straight and see no inebriation and the hangover from hell. Admited most of those are actually alcoholics, not drunks, alcoholics, whose liver rough endoplasmic reticulum is so finely geared to oxidise alcohol the slightest trace hitting the liver is instantly oxidised to acetaldehyde and instantly further oxidied to vinegar without ever leaving the liver and getting a chance to impair the brain function.



The Home Office accepted the current levels of alcohol in blood as the legal limit for driving but the reality is that as a measure of actual impairment in a specific individual it is a totally bogus test, for the reasons identified above, and this bogusness is known and accepted as fact bythe very people who process the samples to prosecute you.



Because the country needed a quick and easy test to catch most of those impaired, and decided catching a few who are not remotely impaired is acceptable.



These are the scientific facts.



I myself become impaired at 105 mg/ml, not 80 (I'm using the original measure) and I know this because I, and fifty other biochemistry, dentistry and medical students provided one cohort of testers for the original lion laboratories alcometer. Advertisements were put up around the university college cardiff campus asking for volunteers to test the device to report to the real ale bar in the students union (chosen because it was the one least used, most of the arts students preferred the yellow fizzy shite they called lager) at 1pm on a wednesday afternoon. wednesday afternoon was the time set aside for university sports matches etc, and it was a half day off for lecturers.



I saw the police putting up these notices, and i followed them for about 45 minutes tearing them down in every arts, law and simialr non scientific, non engineering faculty building i could.



come the hour, hardly any non science and engineering students even knew there as a testing session.



The deal was this.



Pick your poison. beer (in half pints) wine (in 50 ml measures) or spirits (one shot with a large mixer)



Take it away (on us) and consume it at your leisure



Wait 10 minutes (20 for the first)



Step forward, blow into the bag, blow into machine 'a', blow into machine 'b', hold out your thumb for a blood test, try one of those dexterity test wire buzzer things, try some maths , try some MENSA test style pattern recognition



And repeat.



After my fifth half pint of Theakstons best I asked the nice man how far they wanted to calibrate the curve.



"As far as you feel comfortable" came back the answer



Do you know I can consume twenty seven half pints of theakstons old peculiar before I start to fail to get the funny bone out of the "operation" game, but when I fail I find a tremendous sense of mirth ....



And after twenty nine half pints I fail to stand up.



And i did not get a hangover. Largely because I must have forced myself to drink, and piss down the urinals, about a gallon of water before I went home (BY BUS)

May I ask, were you driving the bus?

[johnofgwent]

Before the drink-driving limit was introduced, only people who were blatantly drunk while driving could be prosecuted.  Drink driving was much more prevalent and alcohol-related road accidents were much more numerous.  That's why the limit was brought in.

As I put on the old site, and others.



Speaking as a biochemist, I would like to share with you the gist of part of a lecture on brain biochemistry delivered to our class in October 1977



The guest lecturer was Professor Sir Bernard Knight. Then head of Chepstow Forensic Science Lab.



Alcohol does not, actually' get you drunk



Alcohol enters the bloodstream where many organs primarily the liver break it down by oxidation first to acetaldehyde (ethanal) and then to vinegar (ethanoic acid)



The first breakdown product (ethanal) is the one that, on passing first into the bloodstream and thence through the mythical blood brain barrier interacts with the cerebral and cerebellar cells and causes the impairment and other behaviours we label as intoxication.



Ethanal is then further oxidised into ethanoic acid which is a miracle a worker at causing cranial swelling and dehydration at the same time.



It is ethanoic acid which initiates the after effect you know as a hangover, although the swelling, inflammation and dehydration caused by having excess vinegar in your blood is exacerbates by other breakdown products of whatever it was you drank and whatever they were broken down into.



However, no two people have the exact same reaction rate for conversion of alcohol into acetaldehyde, no two people have the same uptake rate into the brain, and no two people have the same conversion rate for the production of acetaldehyde



There is a bell curve obn each stage.



Which means some unlucky bastard gets an instant hangover from sucking a wine gum without ever seeing the benefit of inebriation, some people show signs of inebriation on volumes of alcohol far less than others, and some really unlucky bugger can sink three bottles of hard liquir straight and see no inebriation and the hangover from hell. Admited most of those are actually alcoholics, not drunks, alcoholics, whose liver rough endoplasmic reticulum is so finely geared to oxidise alcohol the slightest trace hitting the liver is instantly oxidised to acetaldehyde and instantly further oxidied to vinegar without ever leaving the liver and getting a chance to impair the brain function.



The Home Office accepted the current levels of alcohol in blood as the legal limit for driving but the reality is that as a measure of actual impairment in a specific individual it is a totally bogus test, for the reasons identified above, and this bogusness is known and accepted as fact bythe very people who process the samples to prosecute you.



Because the country needed a quick and easy test to catch most of those impaired, and decided catching a few who are not remotely impaired is acceptable.



These are the scientific facts.



I myself become impaired at 105 mg/ml, not 80 (I'm using the original measure) and I know this because I, and fifty other biochemistry, dentistry and medical students provided one cohort of testers for the original lion laboratories alcometer. Advertisements were put up around the university college cardiff campus asking for volunteers to test the device to report to the real ale bar in the students union (chosen because it was the one least used, most of the arts students preferred the yellow fizzy shite they called lager) at 1pm on a wednesday afternoon. wednesday afternoon was the time set aside for university sports matches etc, and it was a half day off for lecturers.



I saw the police putting up these notices, and i followed them for about 45 minutes tearing them down in every arts, law and simialr non scientific, non engineering faculty building i could.



come the hour, hardly any non science and engineering students even knew there as a testing session.



The deal was this.



Pick your poison. beer (in half pints) wine (in 50 ml measures) or spirits (one shot with a large mixer)



Take it away (on us) and consume it at your leisure



Wait 10 minutes (20 for the first)



Step forward, blow into the bag, blow into machine 'a', blow into machine 'b', hold out your thumb for a blood test, try one of those dexterity test wire buzzer things, try some maths , try some MENSA test style pattern recognition



And repeat.



After my fifth half pint of Theakstons best I asked the nice man how far they wanted to calibrate the curve.



"As far as you feel comfortable" came back the answer



Do you know I can consume twenty seven half pints of theakstons old peculiar before I start to fail to get the funny bone out of the "operation" game, but when I fail I find a tremendous sense of mirth ....



And after twenty nine half pints I fail to stand up.



And i did not get a hangover. Largely because I must have forced myself to drink, and piss down the urinals, about a gallon of water before I went home (BY BUS)

[johnofgwent]

As Dave Allen pointed out



A very large number of road accidents are a collision between one drunk driver and one sober one



So if you sober bastards get off the roads us drunks will get home safely ...

[papasmurf]

One thing for sure is, if you're being burgled, the police will give you a crime reference number or they might arrive a week later. If someone rings 999 to say there's a suspected drink driver, flying squad are there in 22 seconds. If it's race related, 18 seconds and abuse towards a homosexual or transgender, 9.3 seconds. And sun bathing during the lockdown, 5 seconds.

The only quick police response time where I live is for Pikey bandits. Other than than it is between two hours and two days.

[Wiggles]

One thing for sure is, if you're being burgled, the police will give you a crime reference number or they might arrive a week later. If someone rings 999 to say there's a suspected drink driver, flying squad are there in 22 seconds. If it's race related, 18 seconds and abuse towards a homosexual or transgender, 9.3 seconds. And sun bathing during the lockdown, 5 seconds.

Funny, but so true.

[Wiggles]

Before the drink-driving limit was introduced, only people who were blatantly drunk while driving could be prosecuted.  Drink driving was much more prevalent and alcohol-related road accidents were much more numerous.  That's why the limit was brought in.

Cars were not as safe, and my suggestion is that the limit is raised, not removed. The point is we need more deaths in the uk

[Benson]

One thing for sure is, if you're being burgled, the police will give you a crime reference number or they might arrive a week later. If someone rings 999 to say there's a suspected drink driver, flying squad are there in 22 seconds. If it's race related, 18 seconds and abuse towards a homosexual or transgender, 9.3 seconds. And sun bathing during the lockdown, 5 seconds.

[Hyperduck Quack Quack]

Before the drink-driving limit was introduced, only people who were blatantly drunk while driving could be prosecuted.  Drink driving was much more prevalent and alcohol-related road accidents were much more numerous.  That's why the limit was brought in.

[Wiggles]

OK, one in ten road fatalities are caused through excess drinking, so the other nine are sober drivers. Surely, based on these statistics we should have a minimum drink driving limit. Secondly, an average of 666 people are killed through drink driving every year, the vast majority of which were the people who had been drinking (let's say two thirds). That means only 222 innocent people are killed through drink driving every year, which equates to about 12%  of road fatalities. In actual fact only about 1770  people die each year in road accidents, which against a population of 67m is an insignificant figure.



You may think I am making light of this, but I just want to put things in proportion. Firstly, I don't drink and drive, and as my local pub is a five minute walk away, I don't need to anyway. The point behind this thread is "how serious is drink driving really". All the statistics prove it isn't really a big issue. There are far more serious accidents and fatalities caused through reckless driving by sober people. It should also be remembered that drinking over the limit isn't the same as drunk driving, which reduces the actual realistic figure even further.



It's my belief that police wanted to up their arrests, and by breathing into a device that proves one guilty, just makes it all an easy nick. Some years ago the government clamped down, like they did with smoking, and number of other things, and most people got sucked in. We presently have a situation where people are grassing up neighbors because they have dared leave their house, so I am guessing it's all part of the British culture.



With a very overpopulated country, I believe it's time the government start advising people to do things a little more dangerous. Let's increase speed limits, reduce the price of fags and booze, get rid of health and safety laws, and increase the drink driving limit.