NHS staff coronavirus inquests told not to look at PPE shortages

[DeppityDawg]

Those hospitals might not be as expensive as it seems in real outgoing terms:  

- Labour cost to built them is the army who have to be paid anyway.

- Equipment for those hospitals might have been in pandemic storage or storage for emergencies like wars already (?)

- Medical staff, as I understand it, were already from paid NHS employees and hospitals had to provide staff to staff them - this is one of the main reasons the hospitals were not choosing to send people there as they had to send staff as well.

- Since there is a lockdown, those buildings aren't being used for anything else right now.



So the real marginal cost of creating that hospital might not be anything like what you think.



As for more than half the population being terrified to go out of their houses, what happened to this bulldog spirit and "we are the greatest" and all that stuff that was going around I wonder.

I'm not even going to bother anymore Javert. Unless you can show me who said "more than half of the population being terrified to go out of their houses"? Who said anything about "bulldog spirit" or "we are the greatest"? I don't think you even read what you are replying to, and it simply isn't worth constantly repeating that nothing like that has been written. It's every post you make and I'm just tired of it now. If you won't address what's actually said, there's no point in answering you.

[T00ts]

I guess the government will be happy to release figures showing how much these measures cost then. Sure, I expect this will provoke the "it doesn't matter how much blah, blah", or even "you don't care about people only money" etc etc response. So be it. But I suspect the per patient cost will be off any scale that doesn't include at least 7 digits. Not that I think we'll ever see any figures. Oh no. No chance.



If we seriously believe that this kind of "anything goes" healthcare response is sustainable, well, I don't know what else to say. I just don't, and if that makes me somehow callous, so be it. I'm a realist, not an idealist. The chancellor is now under pressure to extend the furlough scheme a) because lockdown is still in place, and b) because it appears he's going to have to put some serious effort in to persuade many now terrified people that they have to go back to work.



If it wasn't so serious I'd make a joke, but this is no joke.

I always felt that certainly the sheer size of London Nightingale was more distraction vanity project than anything else. It's almost as if the NHS hospitals were determined to prove that it wasn't necessary by clearing wards of patients ad lib. It's a shame that they seem to have shifted them into the least suitable establishments for safety from a pandemic. In terms of persuading the general public that all the stops were out it went quite a long way at the time but now that it has proved unnecessary it has to raise questions. Will it be needed later in the year? It's probably anyone's guess.



As far as going back to work is concerned I would agree that there will be an element of fear and at least initially there will be some concern as figures are announced. Presumably the daily ritual will end. I must say that wall to wall 24 hour repetitive coverage, distancing reminders, and stories to engender terror has not helped anyone's sanity. I would equate it to being in solitary confinement with a constant bright light and terror screams coming through the walls.



I will not have to return to work but more than that I will still not be allowed out into the real world and I can't help but wonder if people like me will end up being the Guinea pigs for intentional infection just to see if it works. I feel sure it won't be described as that as they plunge the needle into my anatomy.  The whole plan was designed so say, to avoid us all running about like headless chickens when it seems with hind sight that the government were running fastest. I still don't see an alternative to the lock down. Whether with a little more though it could have been regionalised as need occurred rather than nationwide has been a thought but [presumably much harder to organise. WE are at the end of the beginning let's see what the middle is going to look like. Perhaps lessons have been learned and we will do better.

[Javert]

I guess the government will be happy to release figures showing how much these measures cost then. Sure, I expect this will provoke the "it doesn't matter how much blah, blah", or even "you don't care about people only money" etc etc response. So be it. But I suspect the per patient cost will be off any scale that doesn't include at least 7 digits. Not that I think we'll ever see any figures. Oh no. No chance.



If we seriously believe that this kind of "anything goes" healthcare response is sustainable, well, I don't know what else to say. I just don't, and if that makes me somehow callous, so be it. I'm a realist, not an idealist. The chancellor is now under pressure to extend the furlough scheme a) because lockdown is still in place, and b) because it appears he's going to have to put some serious effort in to persuade many now terrified people that they have to go back to work.



If it wasn't so serious I'd make a joke, but this is no joke.

Those hospitals might not be as expensive as it seems in real outgoing terms:  

- Labour cost to built them is the army who have to be paid anyway.

- Equipment for those hospitals might have been in pandemic storage or storage for emergencies like wars already (?)

- Medical staff, as I understand it, were already from paid NHS employees and hospitals had to provide staff to staff them - this is one of the main reasons the hospitals were not choosing to send people there as they had to send staff as well.

- Since there is a lockdown, those buildings aren't being used for anything else right now.



So the real marginal cost of creating that hospital might not be anything like what you think.



As for more than half the population being terrified to go out of their houses, what happened to this bulldog spirit and "we are the greatest" and all that stuff that was going around I wonder.

[DeppityDawg]

Was the Nightingale a debacle? It was quickly and effectively set up as a contingency and has been used as such.

About 90 people were treated there. There are about 40 patients currently there, they are being moved to mainstream hospitals this week and the Nightingale will be mothballed in case of a second peak.

The Nightingale was an excellent initiative by the government as a contingency as were the other field type hospitals.

I guess the government will be happy to release figures showing how much these measures cost then. Sure, I expect this will provoke the "it doesn't matter how much blah, blah", or even "you don't care about people only money" etc etc response. So be it. But I suspect the per patient cost will be off any scale that doesn't include at least 7 digits. Not that I think we'll ever see any figures. Oh no. No chance.



If we seriously believe that this kind of "anything goes" healthcare response is sustainable, well, I don't know what else to say. I just don't, and if that makes me somehow callous, so be it. I'm a realist, not an idealist. The chancellor is now under pressure to extend the furlough scheme a) because lockdown is still in place, and b) because it appears he's going to have to put some serious effort in to persuade many now terrified people that they have to go back to work.



If it wasn't so serious I'd make a joke, but this is no joke.

[Borg Refinery]

Contingency plan that could well still be needed.

And mismanagement by HM's Govern-Not has made things worse for other hospitals.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-nightingale-hospital-nhs-intensive-care-london-latest-a9465901.html%3Famp">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-nightingale-hospital-nhs-intensive-care-london-latest-a9465901.html%3famp

[papasmurf]

Was the Nightingale a debacle?

Contingency plan that could well still be needed.

[Barry]

Who is arguing that the governments handling of PPE provision hasn't been a mess? Some of us have even said that the governments WHOLE response to this crises has been a complete mess, from initial strategy U turns, to testing, to PPE to the "Nightingale" debacle.

Was the Nightingale a debacle? It was quickly and effectively set up as a contingency and has been used as such.

About 90 people were treated there. There are about 40 patients currently there, they are being moved to mainstream hospitals this week and the Nightingale will be mothballed in case of a second peak.

The Nightingale was an excellent initiative by the government as a contingency as were the other field type hospitals.



Still not run out of PPE at our hospital. Does anyone on here with first hand knowledge of any hospital know where they have no PPE?

I'll arrange to send them some.

[T00ts]

You do that's why Barry made you the rottweiler  ::  ::



Last pm I had from Thomas he's fine but had enough of lockdown and trying to kickstart his business so wont be around as much.

Oh good I had missed him.

[cromwell]

I wish we still had a thanks button, as that would definitely get +1. Can't argue with any of that - I don't think we disagree on much here in reality - maybe a different approach to lockdown - but in essence I think we want to get back to "normal" whatever that is. I accept that whilst criticising the government for its actions (or in some cases inactions), some of their responses were clouded/hamstrung by uncertainty because precisely as you say, so much is unknown. Blimey, can't I be irrational and angry sometimes, every fecker else seems to get away with it from time to time  ::



Just going off on a different tack for a moment, where has Thomas gone? Haven't seen him for a while? Hope hes ok.

You do that's why Barry made you the rottweiler  ::  ::



Last pm I had from Thomas he's fine but had enough of lockdown and trying to kickstart his business so wont be around as much.

[DeppityDawg]

A fair response even though we disagree on some things,these are very strange times we live in and eventually ones which will not happen again for a long time,I am confident the world economy will pull through because it is the whole world affected.



Whilst comparisons are made to the 1930's I hope the mistakes made then of turning to extremism aren't made and also that what might be termed mainstream politicians are learning some sort of lesson here (I hope) because stopping the road to extremism lies in their hands.



There is much we still need to learn about this virus and I guess the world is floundering because  so little is really known as to whether immunity is assured post infection,how long it lasts and more,I was remembering a little the other day of the Scottish nurse who had worked in Africa on ebola cases and the surprise at how the virus had lain dormant in her body and awoke and nearly killed her.

I'm no expert but I think the science community know a lot less about viruses than bacterial infections,on a lighter note once this is done you will be back to wasting your money on donkeys,your wife on sparkly tat and the rest of us some normality.....whatever that is.

I wish we still had a thanks button, as that would definitely get +1. Can't argue with any of that - I don't think we disagree on much here in reality - maybe a different approach to lockdown - but in essence I think we want to get back to "normal" whatever that is. I accept that whilst criticising the government for its actions (or in some cases inactions), some of their responses were clouded/hamstrung by uncertainty because precisely as you say, so much is unknown. Blimey, can't I be irrational and angry sometimes, every fecker else seems to get away with it from time to time  ::



Just going off on a different tack for a moment, where has Thomas gone? Haven't seen him for a while? Hope hes ok.

[papasmurf]

According to at least two people on this forum, I expect they think this news Item is all propaganda and lies:-



More at link:-



https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-52519339">https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-52519339



Coronavirus: Doctors 'buy their own PPE or rely on donations'

 03 May 2020 UK



Almost half of doctors in England might be buying their own protective equipment or are relying on donations, according to a survey by the British Medical Association (BMA).



The survey of more than 16,000 doctors also found that 65% feel they are only partly or not at all protected on the front line of the coronavirus crisis.



One said the situation is "an outrage for all staff".



The government said it is "working round the clock" to deliver equipment.



The survey found that 48% of doctors reported having bought personal protective equipment (PPE) directly for themselves or their department, or had received donations from a charity or local firm.



"At the moment we're at the mercy of donations or purchasing them," Dr Chaand Nagpaul, chairman of the BMA council, told BBC Breakfast.



"That doesn't give you security and it hasn't met the government's own commitment and promise that it will be protecting its workforce."

[cromwell]

The saying about stopped clocks applies - he's bound to be right once in a while but his repetitive posting about the "Tories" gets exhausting. And yes, its hard to see how any government would have got everything right.







I can't speak for the "others" even though I know who they are, but I suspect like me they are frustrated at the irresponsible reporting and panic mongering - the fact is most cases ARE mild, and the vast majority of us AREN'T going to die - not that you'd realise it from reading the media hype about coronavirus. Virtually no other news story gets a look in. I bet Prince Andrew is thinking himself quite lucky at the moment. And tbf, the comment I made was about ICU places, and I stand by it that it is unreasonable to expect any country to have had sufficient ICU places standing idle in normal times in case of a pandemic. Yet what do we have now? How many Nightingale Hospitals and how many patients have they treated? Only time will tell now if this was a proportionate reaction and not as a result of hype and panic.







I'm sorry to hear that. The NHS is a subject that will arouse intense argument, but not all of its problems are down to funding or the current government.







In some ways I still feel sorry for them when programmes like Panorama masquerading as unbiased reporting get on their case. But I've said repeatedly, incompetence must be answered for, and nothing I've said makes excuses for that. That comment was also made before the government then made a wild U turn and decided to lock down the country, a policy you know I disagree with and why, even if you don't share my view. With regard to that, whether people are saying it or not, the poll showed that 80% of those questioned are not yet willing to accept the end of lockdown restrictions, so we are where we are. I suspect many people are now so scared of the monster that has been created that we will not return to "normal" (whatever that may look like  :roll: ) until a vaccine is found. By then it will almost certainly be too late to save many, many businesses, and people will find there are no jobs to go back to. Quite how anyone expects a shattered economy to be able to fund a bus route, never mind a Health Service in future is beyond understanding. We are effectively now backed into a corner of our own making with nowhere to go.

A fair response even though we disagree on some things,these are very strange times we live in and eventually ones which will not happen again for a long time,I am confident the world economy will pull through because it is the whole world affected.



Whilst comparisons are made to the 1930's I hope the mistakes made then of turning to extremism aren't made and also that what might be termed mainstream politicians are learning some sort of lesson here (I hope) because stopping the road to extremism lies in their hands.



There is much we still need to learn about this virus and I guess the world is floundering because  so little is really known as to whether immunity is assured post infection,how long it lasts and more,I was remembering a little the other day of the Scottish nurse who had worked in Africa on ebola cases and the surprise at how the virus had lain dormant in her body and awoke and nearly killed her.

I'm no expert but I think the science community know a lot less about viruses than bacterial infections,on a lighter note once this is done you will be back to wasting your money on donkeys,your wife on sparkly tat and the rest of us some normality.....whatever that is.

[papasmurf]

In some ways I still feel sorry for them when programmes like Panorama masquerading as unbiased reporting get on their case.

Well having just watched that Panorama program could please detail what you think is factually inaccurate in it, given the mass of evidence from elsewhere to back  it up.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000hr3y/panorama-has-the-government-failed-the-nhs">https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... ed-the-nhs">https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000hr3y/panorama-has-the-government-failed-the-nhs

[DeppityDawg]

No you didn't post that you never watch BBC programs, but since I've been on the forum, pretty much every time the BBC is mentioned, you pop up stating words to the effect that the BBC is biased, only caters for middle class / elite / rich people or whatever.  



You didn't strike me as the sort of person who would spend time doing something you don't enjoy.  Therefore I concluded by the fact that you didn't have a good word to say about the BBC that you probably don't watch it, except for the news which in one post you did say you watch.



I guess I stand corrected.

I'll point you to the comment you once made about my "dislike of foreigners" after I'd written a post about the effects of mass immigration. I never made any comment about liking or disliking "foreigners" (in fact I mentioned Brits emigrating to other countries too and you ignored that), but this "dislike of foreigners" was what you inserted into your reply, casually, as if it were a fact.



Forget the BBC for a moment. You turned what was a perfectly reasonable view into a pejorative one with a suggestion that some kind of racism lay behind what I was saying - all as a result of your own assumptions and conclusions, none of which had any factual basis. Just by subtly changing a few words here and there (after all, the word "dislike" is not as bad as "hate", but it conjured up the same emotion), you managed to "discredit" my views by effectively lying about me.



This is why I dislike liberals so intensely - you impose your values and judgment structures on me. And you seem to think you have a perfect right to do it. Any criticism of immigration MUST be racist, so you assume racism lay behind it. You couldn't prove it, so you intimated it. You changed what I said and inserted a different meaning. Just like you've done above, and in other posts too. Its just so annoying that these thing are NOT what I've written, and I don't like being lied about, Javert. That is the point here.

[DeppityDawg]

Oh Blimey did I even post this in a reply to you? it was general poke at the govt are doing a great job.....which they aren't,in fairness I don't see any other party would've done better.Though I do believe that Smurfy as in many things has a point

The saying about stopped clocks applies - he's bound to be right once in a while but his repetitive posting about the "Tories" gets exhausting. And yes, its hard to see how any government would have got everything right.

Not that I disbelieve the statement but will remind that you and others were deriding this as a few runny noses and that the govt can't be expected to have equipment like this on hand and lockdown was madness.

I can't speak for the "others" even though I know who they are, but I suspect like me they are frustrated at the irresponsible reporting and panic mongering - the fact is most cases ARE mild, and the vast majority of us AREN'T going to die - not that you'd realise it from reading the media hype about coronavirus. Virtually no other news story gets a look in. I bet Prince Andrew is thinking himself quite lucky at the moment. And tbf, the comment I made was about ICU places, and I stand by it that it is unreasonable to expect any country to have had sufficient ICU places standing idle in normal times in case of a pandemic. Yet what do we have now? How many Nightingale Hospitals and how many patients have they treated? Only time will tell now if this was a proportionate reaction and not as a result of hype and panic.

I haven't ever mentioned the panorama prog (not even watched it) so I don't have to get on with anything,what I have posted is in relation to a family friend who is hospital doctor and has complained of the lack of ppe and is critical of how the NHS is operated long prior to this though did point out not a political person and certainly not left wing

I'm sorry to hear that. The NHS is a subject that will arouse intense argument, but not all of its problems are down to funding or the current government.

You were feeling sorry for this govt before lockdown,I am certainly not saying this can continue forever (I don't think anyone is) but this is a serious issue that had to be tackled,yes there will be economic consequences but I think it a price worth paying,it isn't just here but the whole world and for that reason we might overcome it better

In some ways I still feel sorry for them when programmes like Panorama masquerading as unbiased reporting get on their case. But I've said repeatedly, incompetence must be answered for, and nothing I've said makes excuses for that. That comment was also made before the government then made a wild U turn and decided to lock down the country, a policy you know I disagree with and why, even if you don't share my view. With regard to that, whether people are saying it or not, the poll showed that 80% of those questioned are not yet willing to accept the end of lockdown restrictions, so we are where we are. I suspect many people are now so scared of the monster that has been created that we will not return to "normal" (whatever that may look like  :roll: ) until a vaccine is found. By then it will almost certainly be too late to save many, many businesses, and people will find there are no jobs to go back to. Quite how anyone expects a shattered economy to be able to fund a bus route, never mind a Health Service in future is beyond understanding. We are effectively now backed into a corner of our own making with nowhere to go.