NHS staff coronavirus inquests told not to look at PPE shortages

[Javert]

Here is what you said...







WHERE did I say "I don't watch the BBC"? You won't be able to find it, because I NEVER said any such thing. This is YOU altering what I said. Not watching much TV becomes "Not watching the BBC" For feck sake, do you even notice yourself doing it? Do you not see how doing this undermines and cheapens debate and makes me think its not worth bothering to engage with you because you constantly change and falsify what I said to suit your own argument?



Response: Why should I bother with someone who hates their own country anyway? That's a response to you that shows where this is going. If you can't be bothered to treat my views with respect, then I'm not going to treat yours with any either.

No you didn't post that you never watch BBC programs, but since I've been on the forum, pretty much every time the BBC is mentioned, you pop up stating words to the effect that the BBC is biased, only caters for middle class / elite / rich people or whatever.  



You didn't strike me as the sort of person who would spend time doing something you don't enjoy.  Therefore I concluded by the fact that you didn't have a good word to say about the BBC that you probably don't watch it, except for the news which in one post you did say you watch.



I guess I stand corrected.

[cromwell]

Who is arguing that the governments handling of PPE provision hasn't been a mess? Some of us have even said that the governments WHOLE response to this crises has been a complete mess, from initial strategy U turns, to testing, to PPE to the "Nightingale" debacle. Its like people who keep claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with "lockdown" is some kind of ****, which is bull****. We are opposed to panic mongering, the mindless destruction of our economy because of inept and contradictory policy, entering on a course without any clear exit strategy, and mismanagement of policy responses wholesale in which only a few are the examples above.

Oh Blimey did I even post this in a reply to you? it was general poke at the govt are doing a great job.....which they aren't,in fairness I don't see any other party would've done better.Though I do believe that Smurfy as in many things has a point

Its precisely because of ineptness and underestimation of the threat that we had to enter lockdown at the last minute in the first place, and having done that we were then wholly unprepared in terms of equipping the NHS to deal with it.

Well of course this is a once in a century occurrence but I do take issue with this

ineptness and underestimation of the threat that we had to enter lockdown at the last minute in the first place,

Not that I disbelieve the statement but will remind that you and others were deriding this as a few runny noses and that the govt can't be expected to have equipment like this on hand and lockdown was madness.

But if you are OK with programmes like Panorama wheeling out a series of Papasmurf-like zealots as "personal experience", even if they are doctors and nurses, and then claiming its serious and unbiased reporting, then cool, get on with it.

I haven't ever mentioned the panorama prog (not even watched it) so I don't have to get on with anything,what I have posted is in relation to a family friend who is hospital doctor and has complained of the lack of ppe and is critical of how the NHS is operated long prior to this though did point out not a political person and certainly not left wing

The government and the media has now so overwhelmingly terrified the population over this that now fully 80% of people are against lifting lockdown and reopening the economy. How on earth they believe we can survive like this for much longer is beyond me. Yet you can bet your bottom dollar that when all this has finally faded away and millions have lost their jobs and their homes, many of these SAME people will be complaining that not enough was done to help them. The truth is that we CANNOT go on like this indefinitely, and its utter madness to keep thinking we can. At some point we HAVE to face this or our society will collapse.

You were feeling sorry for this govt before lockdown,I am certainly not saying this can continue forever (I don't think anyone is) but this is a serious issue that had to be tackled,yes there will be economic consequences but I think it a price worth paying,it isn't just here but the whole world and for that reason we might overcome it better

[DeppityDawg]

Here's a few quotes just from the last week, not even going back much further.  It's hardly surprising that I might conclude you don't like the BBC as these are just 3 typical quotes you've made about it.



My point is the, the BBC has thousands of different programs and channels on any number of different topics.

Here is what you said...

Can I ask, have you actually watched the program?  I doubt it as you said you don't watch BBC programs except the news (although arguably this is in fact news).

WHERE did I say "I don't watch the BBC"? You won't be able to find it, because I NEVER said any such thing. This is YOU altering what I said. Not watching much TV becomes "Not watching the BBC" For feck sake, do you even notice yourself doing it? Do you not see how doing this undermines and cheapens debate and makes me think its not worth bothering to engage with you because you constantly change and falsify what I said to suit your own argument?



Response: Why should I bother with someone who hates their own country anyway? That's a response to you that shows where this is going. If you can't be bothered to treat my views with respect, then I'm not going to treat yours with any either.

[Javert]

I don't watch much telly (according to Javert I don't watch the BBC at all), so the domestic chief of staff has control of the remote.

The BBC, the Guardian, the puffington host, the unindependent, they don't allow voices that contradict received liberal wisdom...

As for the BBC allowing "right wingers" an equal voice, don't make me laugh, Javert. The BBC been the subject of many people's ire with regard to partiality, and numerous threads about it on this and previous forums concerning such things as QT audiences, Brexit and GE coverage. The BBC has a huge liberal bias, they don't even try and hide it

I still watch BBC news on TV and its web site

Here's a few quotes just from the last week, not even going back much further.  It's hardly surprising that I might conclude you don't like the BBC as these are just 3 typical quotes you've made about it.



My point is the, the BBC has thousands of different programs and channels on any number of different topics.

[papasmurf]

Who is arguing that the governments handling of PPE provision hasn't been a mess?

At least one person on this forum insists the lack of PPE is a myth, no matter what evidence they are given.

As for "Papasmurf type zealots," they are medical professionals at the sharp end facing disciplinary action for speaking out.

[DeppityDawg]

Oh dear that well known left wing rag the torygraph reports that nearly half of doctors and 1 in 3 hospital docs have had to supply their own PPE.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/almost-half-britains-doctors-have-had-buy-ppe/">//https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/almost-half-britains-doctors-have-had-buy-ppe/

Who is arguing that the governments handling of PPE provision hasn't been a mess? Some of us have even said that the governments WHOLE response to this crises has been a complete mess, from initial strategy U turns, to testing, to PPE to the "Nightingale" debacle. Its like people who keep claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with "lockdown" is some kind of ****, which is bull****. We are opposed to panic mongering, the mindless destruction of our economy because of inept and contradictory policy, entering on a course without any clear exit strategy, and mismanagement of policy responses wholesale in which only a few are the examples above.



Its precisely because of ineptness and underestimation of the threat that we had to enter lockdown at the last minute in the first place, and having done that we were then wholly unprepared in terms of equipping the NHS to deal with it. But if you are OK with programmes like Panorama wheeling out a series of Papasmurf-like zealots as "personal experience", even if they are doctors and nurses, and then claiming its serious and unbiased reporting, then cool, get on with it.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/02/fearful-britons-oppose-lifting-lockdown-schools-pubs-restaurants-opinium-poll">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... inium-poll">https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/02/fearful-britons-oppose-lifting-lockdown-schools-pubs-restaurants-opinium-poll



The government and the media has now so overwhelmingly terrified the population over this that now fully 80% of people are against lifting lockdown and reopening the economy. How on earth they believe we can survive like this for much longer is beyond me. Yet you can bet your bottom dollar that when all this has finally faded away and millions have lost their jobs and their homes, many of these SAME people will be complaining that not enough was done to help them. The truth is that we CANNOT go on like this indefinitely, and its utter madness to keep thinking we can. At some point we HAVE to face this or our society will collapse.

[papasmurf]

Oh dear that well known left wing rag the torygraph reports that nearly half of doctors and 1 in 3 hospital docs have had to supply their own PPE.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/almost-half-britains-doctors-have-had-buy-ppe/">//https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/almost-half-britains-doctors-have-had-buy-ppe/

Doesn't surprise me at all. With nursing homes, dentists, opticians, undertakers, and many others not getting PPE either.

[cromwell]

Oh dear that well known left wing rag the torygraph reports that nearly half of doctors and 1 in 3 hospital docs have had to supply their own PPE.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/almost-half-britains-doctors-have-had-buy-ppe/">//https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/almost-half-britains-doctors-have-had-buy-ppe/

[DeppityDawg]

Well to avoid an argument over some of your beliefs on this,I thought I might go off on a different tack,I know awful thing for a mod to do.



You mean you don't have control of the remote? You'll have Borchester along asking if you should man up,anyway  when she changed channels were QVC selling shoes?



Apologies for going a bit off topic I shall ban myself for an hour but I can't be bothered pointing out why all the "lockdown has gone too far and we're all going to die in a recession" people (not just you) are wrong IMO    :hattip

I don't watch much telly (according to Javert I don't watch the BBC at all), so the domestic chief of staff has control of the remote.



That's ok mate, you can go off topic whenever you like. I feel the same way about pointing out why all the "twenty zillion people will die because some Chinese bloke ate a bat so we have to lock down the entire world until 2027" people (not just you) will end up destroying the economy for generations to come and kill more people than the disease  :hattip

[cromwell]

Secondly, yes I did watch part of the programme, before Mrs Dawg changed channels.

Well to avoid an argument over some of your beliefs on this,I thought I might go off on a different tack,I know awful thing for a mod to do.



You mean you don't have control of the remote? You'll have Borchester along asking if you should man up,anyway  when she changed channels were QVC selling shoes?



Apologies for going a bit off topic I shall ban myself for an hour but I can't be bothered pointing out why all the "lockdown has gone too far and we're all going to die in a recession" people (not just you) are wrong IMO    :hattip

[DeppityDawg]

You appear to assume that any comment by left of centre person or party is a political comment, whereas when the government spins its communications faster than an overheating washing machine, that's somehow not policital?

Of course it is. And I've already said that if incompetence is found, then those responsible need to be held to account. There are also honest mistakes and miscalculations (as we'll see with other "expert" calculations in due course, I'm sure), yet I very much doubt Panorama's choice of "personal experience" interviewees would lead you to believe that its anything less than callous, malicious and conscious decisions made to deliberately harm the NHS. We can see on here the effect that this kind of one sided reporting has on certain members, who cannot even acknowledge when their claims are subsequently shown to be categorically false. Panorama could surely could have found SOMEONE to share their personal experience who wasn't a left wing Harpie.

Also - I think I've pointed out this before, but this is a public forum (at least for the members), so if I quote your posts, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm directing all of the following comments directly at you personally.

And I've pointed out to you numerous times that attaching your own (false) motives and conclusions to my words, or inserting words I didn't actually write, as a way of confirming your own argument, is both dishonest and annoying. This is how illusions are born. You saying "your dislike of foreigners" because I wrote an objection to mass immigration, creates a false argument and vilifies me as some kind of racist, neither of which are true. This then becomes "any kind of objection to immigration is racist because we liberals SAY it is".



Two can play at that game. So you'll have to work harder now to convince me that you don't hate your own country, Javert.

[Javert]

FFS! Are you doing this on purpose? You didnt. I made it up, as an example of what YOU constantly do. You take someone's words or view, then insert a meaning of your own. Opposed to mass immigration = "your dislike of foreigners" as a real example of something you actually once wrote. Is it ok for me to start doing this with your views from now on? Stop hating your own country Javert. It's not clever  :roll:



It's not a question of my approval. Would you expect 100% of NHS staff opinion to be wholly in line with left wing orthodox views? If the answer is yes, then 100% of the "personal interest" element in that programme certainly was. And if that's the case, then it was the programme some people wanted to make (eg political), not a balanced representative documentary they claim it to be.

OK fair enough, but I'm still not clear how it's a "left wing view", for example, to point out that the government ignored several recommendations to add gowns to the pandemic stockpile.  It's also quite telling that the government response was to try to attack the program and discredit the person who presented the information.  Surely if the government had a good reason not to add gowns, they would have given their reason.



It's the same as the whole thing about why the UK wasn't in the procurement schemes with the EU - if the government had a really good solid reason for that, why do they keep changing their story every few days?



That's why I'm trying to understand what you think would be a balanced comment - have someone on to say that they have all the PPE they need and everything is perfect?  



In recent days we have even had the heads of NHS trusts going public with critical comments about the way the government is handling the PPE situation - not just the shortages themselves, but the constant spin and false information being given out.  These are the heads of huge organisations - are they also left wing puppets?



You appear to assume that any comment by left of centre person or party is a political comment, whereas when the government spins its communications faster than an overheating washing machine, that's somehow not policital?



Also - I think I've pointed out this before, but this is a public forum (at least for the members), so if I quote your posts, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm directing all of the following comments directly at you personally.

[DeppityDawg]

When did I say I hated my own country?  Can you point me to that post?

FFS! Are you doing this on purpose? You didnt. I made it up, as an example of what YOU constantly do. You take someone's words or view, then insert a meaning of your own. Opposed to mass immigration = "your dislike of foreigners" as a real example of something you actually once wrote. Is it ok for me to start doing this with your views from now on? Stop hating your own country Javert. It's not clever  :roll:

So, if there was a commentator or someone that you approve of on the program, what would you have expected them to say?

It's not a question of my approval. Would you expect 100% of NHS staff opinion to be wholly in line with left wing orthodox views? If the answer is yes, then 100% of the "personal interest" element in that programme certainly was. And if that's the case, then it was the programme some people wanted to make (eg political), not a balanced representative documentary they claim it to be.

[Borchester]

When did I say I hated my own country?  

DD got that one wrong Javert. I can't see any evidence of you hating the EU.

[Borchester]

These TV stories remind me of a story popular during one of the Gulf wars.



Apparently the troops were being sent into battle not only without the right guns, bullets and protective clothing, they did not even have any loo paper. That story ran and ran right up until the eve of battle when one of the commanders of the British forces lined the lads up and said, in effect, if you can't secure yourselves a few bog rolls then you are no use to me or the British army. And the squaddies grinned sheepishly and confessed to secret stashes of Andrex's finest.



The British army suffered many shortages (apparently the rifle of the time was not up to much) as does every large organisation, but throughout the conflict there were no records of any squaddie being laid low with a dirty bum.