NHS staff coronavirus inquests told not to look at PPE shortages

[Javert]

Javert, how is it that you are so casually able to misrepresent what is said so often and so routinely? Do you not read other people's posts properly, or do you just not realise that inserting these meaning of your own is so annoying? Where have I said I don't watch BBC programmes? I said I don't listen to Radio 4 anymore, but you have now changed this to me "not watching BBC programmes". Just to be clear, can you reference this, or show where I said this, because this is just becoming so irritating that I'm starting to think you are doing it purposely?



Secondly, yes I did watch part of the programme, before Mrs Dawg changed channels.1) I never saw any such disclaimer on the programme, and 2) was it not possible that they could have found at least ONE commentator who could provide a "personal interest" that wasn't from a left wing perspective? Because I don't believe that is the 100% "personal" story or interest of all NHS staff. Similarly, pointing something out and attempting to provide balanced reporting are not the same thing. As I've said before, I don't trust the BBC - but that DOESN'T mean I don't watch it, so where the feck did you get this conclusion from.



Then the comment about being a Labour party member excluding someone from commenting? Yes, that true. But WHO said it should for feck sake? Can you show me who said that? I said there should be Balance. I did NOT say anyone should be excluded from commenting. But it's painfully obvious from the programme who IS missing from commenting?



By the way Javert. You said you are a Remainer. How do you square your utter hatred and betrayal of you own country with wanting to stay in the EU? Is this the kind of debating we should be having, and Ive simply been missing that it's ok to just insert any old meaning you like into other people's sincerely held beliefs?

When did I say I hated my own country?  Can you point me to that post?



So, if there was a commentator or someone that you approve of on the program, what would you have expected them to say?

[DeppityDawg]

Can I ask, have you actually watched the program?  I doubt it as you said you don't watch BBC programs except the news (although arguably this is in fact news).



If you watch the program, the findings listed don't come from allegations directly from those doctors - they are sourced from other places, as I pointed out in my post.  The doctors and nurses or whatever were there to provide a personal interest in it.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/state ... mon-27-apr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr



Here is the full BBC press release where they say that the pointed out in the show that some of the people being interviewed were critics of the government.



Also, being a Labour Party supporter does not, and certainly should not, exclude you from pointing out safety issues in your job.

Javert, how is it that you are so casually able to misrepresent what is said so often and so routinely? Do you not read other people's posts properly, or do you just not realise that inserting these meaning of your own is so annoying? Where have I said I don't watch BBC programmes? I said I don't listen to Radio 4 anymore, but you have now changed this to me "not watching BBC programmes". Just to be clear, can you reference this, or show where I said this, because this is just becoming so irritating that I'm starting to think you are doing it purposely?



Secondly, yes I did watch part of the programme, before Mrs Dawg changed channels.1) I never saw any such disclaimer on the programme, and 2) was it not possible that they could have found at least ONE commentator who could provide a "personal interest" that wasn't from a left wing perspective? Because I don't believe that is the 100% "personal" story or interest of all NHS staff. Similarly, pointing something out and attempting to provide balanced reporting are not the same thing. As I've said before, I don't trust the BBC - but that DOESN'T mean I don't watch it, so where the feck did you get this conclusion from.



Then the comment about being a Labour party member excluding someone from commenting? Yes, that true. But WHO said it should for feck sake? Can you show me who said that? I said there should be Balance. I did NOT say anyone should be excluded from commenting. But it's painfully obvious from the programme who IS missing from commenting?



By the way Javert. You said you are a Remainer. How do you square your utter hatred and betrayal of you own country with wanting to stay in the EU? Is this the kind of debating we should be having, and Ive simply been missing that it's ok to just insert any old meaning you like into other people's sincerely held beliefs?

[papasmurf]

Also, being a Labour Party supporter does not, and certainly should not, exclude you from pointing out safety issues in your job.

Quite, and neither should being a union member.

[Javert]

The allegation is that all 5 doctors and nurses interviewed in the programme have demonstrable links to the labour party (some hard left) and/or hobby horse campaign groups.

Can I ask, have you actually watched the program?  I doubt it as you said you don't watch BBC programs except the news (although arguably this is in fact news).



If you watch the program, the findings listed don't come from allegations directly from those doctors - they are sourced from other places, as I pointed out in my post.  The doctors and nurses or whatever were there to provide a personal interest in it.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/state ... mon-27-apr">https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr



Here is the full BBC press release where they say that the pointed out in the show that some of the people being interviewed were critics of the government.



Also, being a Labour Party supporter does not, and certainly should not, exclude you from pointing out safety issues in your job.

[Borchester]

So what? (Seriously) Plenty of rabid Tories have been attacking the government about the PPE issue.

Quite.

If the medics were members of the Tory party we would know that Boris had plans to set up death camps on Bodmin Moor, but they are socialists and we know that the gulags are really fun things  

[papasmurf]

The allegation is that all 5 doctors and nurses interviewed in the programme have demonstrable links to the labour party (some hard left) and/or hobby horse campaign groups.

So what? (Seriously) Plenty of rabid Tories have been attacking the government about the PPE issue.

[DeppityDawg]

You imply it, you won't address the issue, you just abuse me.

I abuse you because you are telling fecking lies. SHOW WHERE I SAID IT, or shut up.

[DeppityDawg]

When you say that the matter is politicised, I'm not clear what you mean.  Do you mean the timing is wrong for investigation, or do you mean you disagree with the findings.  I've pasted in below the main 4 findings from Monday's Panorama program.  Do you disagree with any/all of them and think they are wrong and if so do you have opposite findings?  



We do seem to have a problem in the modern world where anyone who points out any issues or problems with what the government is doing, is immediately accused of political bias an personally attacked.  This leads many people into a situation where they automatically assume everything the government is doing is perfect, and anyone who claims it isn't is simply a politically motivated liar. (I'm not saying that's you as you correctly say that the government has not been perfect, but I would still challenge your definition of what is policital).

The allegation is that all 5 doctors and nurses interviewed in the programme have demonstrable links to the labour party (some hard left) and/or hobby horse campaign groups.



Yes Javert, I myself am a critic of this governments handling of this crisis, mistakes have been made and there is a strong case for incompetence. But as we discussed in another thread, it's about balance. Would you have been happy if all interviewees or contributors to the programme could have been demonstrated to be card carrying Tories or supporters of government policy? As with so many things about the NHS, emotions over rule logical discussion. If mistakes have been made, if incompetence is proved, then those responsible should be held to account. But instead we are getting the same attidtude displayed by the zealot above. That somehow, this is deliberate policy designed to attack the NHS, or that anyone who doesn't share these views (like me for instance) somehow "doesn't care" that NHS staff have died. That is a fecking lie, Javert, and it demeans both me and any sincerity anyone else may have.

[papasmurf]

WHERE have I said I "don't care" if NHS staff die? Provide the quote, or shut the feck up.

You imply it, you won't address the issue, you just abuse me.

[DeppityDawg]

You attack the messenger without addressing the message.  You imply you don't care frequently.

I await the coroner's verdict on this death and any  probable legal action interest:-



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-52475510">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... e-52475510">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-52475510

WHERE have I said I "don't care" if NHS staff die? Provide the quote, or shut the feck up.

[Javert]

I don't think this government have covered themselves in glory over this whole sorry mess, but the usual predictable attempts to politicise matters like this are in full swing (Panorama for instance). You shouldn't be surprised that the forum zealot would be on that bandwagon. You've already shown up his made up claims in another thread, to which his response was silence. It's so fecking frustrating that his constant rubbish infects every thread but there it is. We WILL overcome  ::

When you say that the matter is politicised, I'm not clear what you mean.  Do you mean the timing is wrong for investigation, or do you mean you disagree with the findings.  I've pasted in below the main 4 findings from Monday's Panorama program.  Do you disagree with any/all of them and think they are wrong and if so do you have opposite findings?  



We do seem to have a problem in the modern world where anyone who points out any issues or problems with what the government is doing, is immediately accused of political bias an personally attacked.  This leads many people into a situation where they automatically assume everything the government is doing is perfect, and anyone who claims it isn't is simply a politically motivated liar. (I'm not saying that's you as you correctly say that the government has not been perfect, but I would still challenge your definition of what is policital).

It featured four new revelations:



- That the billion plus items of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) that the government has supplied included cleaning products and individually counted gloves, which is sourced from a document tracking national PPE supply.

- That gowns, visors, swabs and body bags were not included in the pandemic stockpile. Last year expert advisory committee NERVTAG (The New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group) recommended gowns be added to that stockpile but they were not. This is sourced from NERVTAG minutes. The lack of any gowns, visors, swabs and body bags in the stockpile was confirmed by Public Health England.

- That although 33 million FFP3 respirator masks were specified in the stockpile procurement list, only 12 million have been distributed. The programme sought, but received no explanation from the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) for what happened to the other 21 million.

- That steps to remove Covid-19 from the High Consequence Infectious Diseases (HCID) list were taken by the DHSC on 13 March, the same day PPE guidance was downgraded. Sources on the committee who supported the removal of Covid-19 from the HCID list told Panorama the decision to remove it was in part based on how much PPE was available.

[papasmurf]

Really? I "don't care" how many NHS staff die? Where have I said any such thing? Do you have a quote? Evidence that I said or think any such thing? If not, then feck off if you can't accept others may have a different opinion to you without being some kind of sub human.

You attack the messenger without addressing the message.  You imply you don't care frequently.

I await the coroner's verdict on this death and any  probable legal action interest:-



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-52475510">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... e-52475510">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-52475510

[DeppityDawg]

Deleted because I somehow managed to quote myself for no apparent reason

[DeppityDawg]

You need to take you blue tinted spectactacles and your blinkers off, and stop attacking the messenger becasue you don't like the message.

  Four times since May 2010 the government has failed to act on expert scientific advice to have a buffer store of PPE. The governnent needs bringing to account about that.

So basically you don't care how many NHS staff die because of a lack of PPE and you think the government  should get away with it without question.

Attempting gag/influence Coroners is digusting.

Really? I "don't care" how many NHS staff die? Where have I said any such thing? Do you have a quote? Evidence that I said or think any such thing? If not, then feck off if you can't accept others may have a different opinion to you without being some kind of sub human.

[papasmurf]

I don't think this government have covered themselves in glory over this whole sorry mess, but the usual predictable attempts to politicise matters like this are in full swing (Panorama for instance). You shouldn't be surprised that the forum zealot would be on that bandwagon. You've already shown up his made up claims in another thread, to which his response was silence. It's so fecking frustrating that his constant rubbish infects every thread but there it is. We WILL overcome  ::

You need to take you blue tinted spectactacles and your blinkers off, and stop attacking the messenger becasue you don't like the message.

  Four times since May 2010 the government has failed to act on expert scientific advice to have a buffer store of PPE. The governnent needs bringing to account about that.

So basically you don't care how many NHS staff die because of a lack of PPE and you think the government  should get away with it without question.

Attempting gag/influence Coroners is digusting.