They quite literally cannot stop lying can they?

[Borg Refinery]

You are right, I read you wrong!



I have no right to enquire about personal matters but I am intrigued by some of the allusions you make regarding Orthodox Christianity, Russian 'old believers' and monastery. Also the link you provided was fascinating and illustrates that even in a supposedly relatively free world that if you don't live within acceptable social parameters, even though your life and spiritual choices may have minimal impact on others, your freedom is constrained perhaps to a severe degree.

Yes, that's the crux of the matter really. I do accept others beliefs and I can even accept that others' political systems or beliefs may work out better than my own, to me it is about what helps other people the most. The ideals of Orthodoxy are roughly mirrored in philosophy by Stoicism.



The Russian Old Believers are wonderful, really inspirational people. There aren't many left but there's a couple of quite touching stories about them..



https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/siberian-hermit-75-who-lives-in-18th-century-refuses-to-be-moved-by-space-age/">https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/ ... space-age/">https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/siberian-hermit-75-who-lives-in-18th-century-refuses-to-be-moved-by-space-age/



You used to have these sort of proto comedians called 'yurodivy', you no doubt like plenty of Rus lit and opera so you'll be in heaven here.

The yurodivy in art and literature   Edi

There are a number of references to the yurodivy in 19th century Russian literature. The holy fool Nikolka is a character in Pushkin's play Boris Godunov and Mussorgsky's opera based on the play.[16][17] In Pushkin's narrative poem The Bronze Horseman, the character of Evgenii is based in the tradition of the holy fools in his confrontation with the animated statue of Peter the Great.[18]



The yurodivy appears several times in the novels of Dostoevsky. The Idiot explores the ramifications of placing a holy fool (the compassionate and insightful epileptic Prince Myshkin) in a secular world dominated by vanity and desire.[19] According to Joseph Frank "though the gentlemanly and well-educated prince bears no external resemblance to these eccentric figures, he does possess their traditional gift of spiritual insight, which operates instinctively, below any level of conscious awareness or doctrinal commitment."[

Yes the monasteries are just unbelievable, I really wish there could be a society that operated just like them. The beeb ran a quick doc on a monastery in Lebanon if you've got a spare moment:



https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x719lo1">https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x719lo1



I feel close to monastic life, yet the actual pressures of being a monk 100% of the time are incredible and too much for me. Idk if that makes much sense, it seems to me that even if you managed to get halfway there, it'd be quite incredible.



I'm not proselytizing! I make a point of trying not to force my religion on others, unless expressly asked.

am far from calling you a mad zealot yet! I reserve that accusation for John McDonnell! ::

 ::

[Major Sinic]

You are assuming that I'm a lefty; many of my pals are nearly all Boris, Trump, and/or Putin supporting ultra-conservative Orthodox Christians. Or Russian 'old believers'. I agree with most of them on more stuff than anyone else. At the monastery they've actually invited alt-right speakers to come as welcome guests.



My worldview is ultra-pluralistic; I believe the future should be about tolerating many different types of societies, in fact my ideal society would be almost monastic in nature; but I don't desire to force that on anyone else who doesn't want it. I've no issue with those who like Boris's politics and whom wish to live under modified neoliberal capitalism - that society should be permitted for those who want it. Same for the commies, the other theocrats, royalists, traditional conservatives etc. Let them have the society they desire.



IMHO the main problem we face in the world is that one singular vision of society is forced on all of us, whether we want it or not. Just look at Greece where the liberal lefty Greek state has tried to ruin one of the ancient monasteries because they would not 'conform' to the wishes of the 'powers that be'. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/02/helenasmith.theobserver">https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/ ... heobserver">https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/02/helenasmith.theobserver



IMHO we've got to somehow move away from the singular vision and try something new. (shrug)



Some of the Orthodox folks share that vision and some want everyone to live under 100% Orthodox Autocracy under the new Tsar all over the world, .



You can feel free to call me a mad zealot, I'm used to it..

You are right, I read you wrong!



I have no right to enquire about personal matters but I am intrigued by some of the allusions you make regarding Orthodox Christianity, Russian 'old believers' and monastery. Also the link you provided was fascinating and illustrates that even in a supposedly relatively free world that if you don't live within acceptable social parameters, even though your life and spiritual choices may have minimal impact on others, your freedom is constrained perhaps to a severe degree.



I am far from calling you a mad zealot yet! I reserve that accusation for John McDonnell! ::

[Borg Refinery]

Well you would! In Tory terms he was as about as left wing as you can get without being a Liberal Democrat.  

You are assuming that I'm a lefty; many of my pals are nearly all Boris, Trump, and/or Putin supporting ultra-conservative Orthodox Christians. Or Russian 'old believers'. I agree with most of them on more stuff than anyone else. At the monastery they've actually invited alt-right speakers to come as welcome guests.



My worldview is ultra-pluralistic; I believe the future should be about tolerating many different types of societies, in fact my ideal society would be almost monastic in nature; but I don't desire to force that on anyone else who doesn't want it. I've no issue with those who like Boris's politics and whom wish to live under modified neoliberal capitalism - that society should be permitted for those who want it. Same for the commies, the other theocrats, royalists, traditional conservatives etc. Let them have the society they desire.



IMHO the main problem we face in the world is that one singular vision of society is forced on all of us, whether we want it or not. Just look at Greece where the liberal lefty Greek state has tried to ruin one of the ancient monasteries because they would not 'conform' to the wishes of the 'powers that be'. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/02/helenasmith.theobserver">https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/ ... heobserver">https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/02/helenasmith.theobserver



IMHO we've got to somehow move away from the singular vision and try something new. (shrug)



Some of the Orthodox folks share that vision and some want everyone to live under 100% Orthodox Autocracy under the new Tsar all over the world, .



You can feel free to call me a mad zealot, I'm used to it..

[Major Sinic]

Yep agreed on the whole first bit.



Hmm.. in my humble opinion, Boris is a pretty bold liar. That guy has told some incredible porkies... he got fired twice for lying after all. He's done some more incredibly stupid things subsequently as wellll...Corbyn has done many stupid things too but IMHO they aren't even in the same ballpark.



I personally think David Davis ought to have won the Tory eadership contest in 2005, or even later on. But out of all the Tory possibles I think Rory Stewart would've been a lot better than any of the others.

 Well you would! In Tory terms he was as about as left wing as you can get without being a Liberal Democrat.  

[Sheepy]

Nope they can't,not one of them or their spoon fed entourage.

[Borg Refinery]

Yep agreed on the whole first bit.



Hmm.. in my humble opinion, Boris is a pretty bold liar. That guy has told some incredible porkies... he got fired twice for lying after all. He's done some more incredibly stupid things subsequently as wellll...Corbyn has done many stupid things too but IMHO they aren't even in the same ballpark.



I personally think David Davis ought to have won the Tory eadership contest in 2005, or even later on. But out of all the Tory possibles I think Rory Stewart would've been a lot better than any of the others.

[Major Sinic]

No worries at all, Yours was a good post like I said. And on reflection - it is understandable that you made that post, and my fault for making a thread with a general title. I was hoping to mostly discuss the LDs and related issues - didn't communicate that.



However, why not make it a general thread about politician's inability not to tell lies? Your idea trumps mine and we'll run with it.



I'll point out that I just watched Nadim Zahawi howling out rubbish to Simon McCoy - bleating about Labour's "unaffordable" manifesto; when pressed on whether the Tory plans would increase the debt he just couldn't give a straight answer, not even a "yes but..". I hate it when they can't give a yes or no answer.

Yes, they are only fooling themselves. I have no idea why so many won't give a straight answer to a straight question. Honesty, even if the answer isn't what you want to hear, earns far more respect than obfuscation, evasion and downright porkies; no that is too softer a word; perhaps fecking great lies is the most apt.  I think we also both agree that all political parties has too big a share of liars within it.



As you may gather I am a Tory. I had little time for Cameron; he could have been Blair's brother as in tell'em what they want to hear, I respected May's integrity but recognised she was weak and disasterous as a leader but I am increasingly drawn to Boris.

[Borg Refinery]

Hi Dynamis. Off topic? How so? I thought the thread was about the seeming inability of politicians to not tell lies? One of my pet hates are people who drag a thread of topic although it is often unconsciously done by the unwary. If I am guilty I apologise.

No worries at all, Yours was a good post like I said. And on reflection - it is understandable that you made that post, and my fault for making a thread with a general title. I was hoping to mostly discuss the LDs and related issues - didn't communicate that.



However, why not make it a general thread about politician's inability not to tell lies? Your idea trumps mine and we'll run with it.



I'll point out that I just watched Nadim Zahawi howling out rubbish to Simon McCoy - bleating about Labour's "unaffordable" manifesto; when pressed on whether the Tory plans would increase the debt he just couldn't give a straight answer, not even a "yes but..". I hate it when they can't give a yes or no answer.

[Major Sinic]

Hi Dynamis. Off topic? How so? I thought the thread was about the seeming inability of politicians to not tell lies? One of my pet hates are people who drag a thread of topic although it is often unconsciously done by the unwary. If I am guilty I apologise.

[Borg Refinery]

Personally I would give some of then a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver and suggest they do the decent thing.

Link please.









Joking. Nonetheless I fell like doing that sometimes when I listen to some of their crap. They really are pushing the limits in this GE.........

[papasmurf]

Anyway...."give em enough rope" seems to be equally applicable to all the parties in this GE(!).

Personally I would give some of then a bottle of whisky and a loaded revolver and suggest they do the decent thing.

[Borg Refinery]

There is the world of difference between making a statement which you sincerely to be true but is shown not to be and deliberately making a statement which you know to be untrue with the objective of influencing others.



Unfortunately the antagonism, anger and resentment among all areas of the population is repeated throughout our third rate political community. It is therefore inevitable that those seeking personal or party election are going to make both well intended errors as well as even more regrettably outright lies.



I have to say I admired Ian Austin for his courage and principle when he spoke today condemning Corbyn as unfit to be Prime Minister and unfit to lead the Labour Party. There then followed the most blatant and deliberate lie of the morning from John McDonnell, opposition chancellor who stated categorically that Ian Austin is employed by the Tories. The truth is that he is a civil servant employed as a trade envoy to Israel by the Department of International Trade.



So Mr McDonnell you deliberately smear and lie about a man who, unlike your boss Corbyn, has been a hard working and loyal member of the Labour Party, a Labour MP and Labour Minister for many years. This says so much more about you your own lack of honesty, integrity and moral scruples than it does about Ian Austin.

With the utmost of respect Sinic (I tend to agree with a lot of what you write, sometimes begrudgingly(!), but nonetheless..), surely this is slightly off-topic?



HOWEVER..I agree about your assessments of McDonnell and Corbyn.



IMHO Corbyn is surrounded by guileful gulag lubbers who think they're very clever. I don't like McDonnell and thank the Lord that Watson is gone.



With respect to Abbott she's such a good local politician for her constituents but Gawd bleedin awful as a national one; and who thought of sticking her on a regular telly slot??? That is top notch Labour discrediting propaganda right there..



Anyway...."give em enough rope" seems to be equally applicable to all the parties in this GE(!).

[Major Sinic]

Jo Swinson, you know the rather strident 'Mumsnet' leader of the Liberal Democrats, is another one who struggles with the 'actual verite' a phrase originated I believe by Alan Clark.



While being interviewed she looked at the camera in her doe-eyed way and claimed that Brexit would cost the  UK 6% of its GDP. Fact checks subsequently confirmed that the actual claim was that the UK GDP growth over the next ten years will be 6% lower as a result of Brexit.



A reasonable person can only conclude that she is either a liar or plain stupid!

[Major Sinic]

Could be some truth in it, but, who appointed him?  If he was appointed to his role by a government minister then I guess it's technically true to say he was appointed by the tories.

You are already struggling to defend your man. Best of luck! Regardless of who appointed him, and I have no idea whether it was a minister or not, he is not employed by or working for the Tories which was the clear lie. He is working within the Department of International Trade, for the good of the nation not the benefit of Tories.



You should be careful in picking your battles Javert, or you run the risk of compromising your own integrity. I am not saying that McDonnell is the only outright liar in the present political process; there have been and will be others from every political party but this example is particularly blatant example and an attempted smear of a seeming honourable man.

[Javert]

T

I have to say I admired Ian Austin for his courage and principle when he spoke today condemning Corbyn as unfit to be Prime Minister and unfit to lead the Labour Party. There then followed the most blatant and deliberate lie of the morning from John McDonnell, opposition chancellor who stated categorically that Ian Austin is employed by the Tories. The truth is that he is a civil servant employed as a trade envoy to Israel by the Department of International Trade.

Could be some truth in it, but, who appointed him?  If he was appointed to his role by a government minister then I guess it's technically true to say he was appointed by the tories.