Shamima Begum:

[patman post]

https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/05/19/inside-vladimir-putins-mafia-state">https://www.economist.com/books-and-art ... afia-state">https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/05/19/inside-vladimir-putins-mafia-state

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-trump-russia-investigation-and-the-mafia-state">https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colu ... afia-state">https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-trump-russia-investigation-and-the-mafia-state

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/3001483/russias-feared-mafia-leaders-shock-vladimir-putin">https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia- ... imir-putin">https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/3001483/russias-feared-mafia-leaders-shock-vladimir-putin

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/23/how-organised-crime-took-over-russia-vory-super-mafia">https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/m ... uper-mafia">https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/23/how-organised-crime-took-over-russia-vory-super-mafia

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/the-vory-russias-super-mafia-world-cup/9899542">https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/ ... up/9899542">https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/the-vory-russias-super-mafia-world-cup/9899542

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/12/23/the-implications-of-russias-mafia-state/">https://www.the-american-interest.com/2 ... fia-state/">https://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/12/23/the-implications-of-russias-mafia-state/

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2012/05/27/why-russias-mafia-state-is-so-inefficient-a15034">https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2012/05/ ... ent-a15034">https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2012/05/27/why-russias-mafia-state-is-so-inefficient-a15034

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-11895163/is-russia-a-mafia-state">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us- ... afia-state">https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-11895163/is-russia-a-mafia-state

https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/ruscrime.htm">https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/ruscrime.htm



And plenty more — I doubt they're all fake news...

[papasmurf]

Is there any difference? The whole state is a Russian mafia family with the Boss getting a percentage from each of the business oligarchs

Have you any actual evidence for that please.

[patman post]

What I find  puzzling is the recent allegations that Russian  money (not Russian government money) is financing the Tory party.

Is there any difference? The whole state is a Russian mafia family with the Boss getting a percentage from each of the business oligarchs in return for allowing them to keep running their business empires. And we've seen what happens to those who fall foul of the Boss...

[cromwell]

I don't have to since it's not relevent to the matter at hand.



We're discussing the decisions she made when she was sixteen within the context of your assertion that Corbyn can't simulteously believe that sixteen year old has the maturity to vote and that they can he considered to have diminished responsibility under certain circumstances.



The questions of what age a person is considered mature enough to vote and whether a person can considered to have diminished responsibility for a particular action they took are seperate and should not be conflated.

Or to be precise it's not a question you want to face.....or answer.

[Nick]

I don't have to since it's not relevent to the matter at hand.



We're discussing the decisions she made when she was sixteen within the context of your assertion that Corbyn can't simulteously believe that sixteen year old has the maturity to vote and that they can he considered to have diminished responsibility under certain circumstances.

You're missing the point, with it being that if she is still of the same mind at 19 but bleating that she was brainwashed and now wants to come home, how can it be diminished responsibility? She is still of the same mind set but just wants to make her own life easier, she is fundamentally the same person she was when she ran away at 16, evil. Corbyn as usual is just issuing sound bites that he thinks might just get him into #10.  He only wants 16 year olds to vote as he thinks they are more likely to vote Labour.

[Ciaphas]

So if we follow your reasoning and accept it, how do you square it at the age of 19 When she admitted she watched beheadings of westerners and was ok with it? This is the things that made people say she can rot in Syria, not the fact she ran off.



How are you going to put your Liberal spin on that?

I don't have to since it's not relevent to the matter at hand.



We're discussing the decisions she made when she was sixteen within the context of your assertion that Corbyn can't simulteously believe that sixteen year old has the maturity to vote and that they can he considered to have diminished responsibility under certain circumstances.



The questions of what age a person is considered mature enough to vote and whether a person can considered to have diminished responsibility for a particular action they took are seperate and should not be conflated.

[Nick]

The issue is far more complex than that but if you don't consider the role of emotional trauma or grooming to be sufficiently important when determing a persons culpability for their actions then there isn't much point continuing this conversation.



Suffice to say I stand by my statement that you cannot compare a typical sixteen year olds capacity to make an informed choice on how to vote in a general election with the decision making capacity of a sixteen year old whose mother has died, was in conflict with her step mother and had been groomed by Islamic extremists taking advatage of her vulnerable state.



It is entirely reasonable for Mr Corbyn to simultaneously hold the view that sixteen year olds are mature enough to vote, and that under certain circumstances a sixteen year old could be considered to have diminished responsibility for their actions.

So if we follow your reasoning and accept it, how do you square it at the age of 19 when she admitted she watched beheadings of westerners and was ok with it? This is the things that made people say she can rot in Syria, not the fact she ran off.



How are you going to put your Liberal spin on that?

[Ciaphas]

Her and her 2 mates were unaccompanied when they fled to Turkey. She stole her sisters passport thinking it was some kind of adventure.



You limp wristed liberals are all the same, you always find someone else to blame, it's never the individuals fault.



I'm not saying they didn't make a mistake but in life you have to pay for your mistakes, and her payment is lying in the bed she made.

The issue is far more complex than that but if you don't consider the role of emotional trauma or grooming to be sufficiently important when determing a persons culpability for their actions then there isn't much point continuing this conversation.



Suffice to say I stand by my statement that you cannot compare a typical sixteen year olds capacity to make an informed choice on how to vote in a general election with the decision making capacity of a sixteen year old whose mother has died, was in conflict with her step mother and had been groomed by Islamic extremists taking advatage of her vulnerable state.



It is entirely reasonable for Mr Corbyn to simultaneously hold the view that sixteen year olds are mature enough to vote, and that under certain circumstances a sixteen year old could be considered to have diminished responsibility for their actions.

[papasmurf]

What I find  puzzling is the recent allegations that Russian  money (not Russian government money) is financing the Tory party.

[Nick]

Following the death of her mother Shamima Begum was groomed by two Islamist extremists into joining ISIS, taken to Gatwick airport and put her on a flight to Turkey from where she travelled to Syria.



Your comparison doesn't hold up to even the most cursory inspection.

Her and her 2 mates were unaccompanied when they fled to Turkey. She stole her sisters passport thinking it was some kind of adventure.



You limp wristed liberals are all the same, you always find someone else to blame, it's never the individuals fault.



I'm not saying they didn't make a mistake but in life you have to pay for your mistakes, and her payment is lying in the bed she made.

[Ciaphas]

Corbyn 2 years ago "We demand the return of Shamima Begum to the UK at once, she was only a 16 year old immature child when she took the decision to join ISIS, she cannot be held accountable for her actions at such a young age".



Corbyn last week "We demand that 16 year olds be given the vote in the UK, they are responsible and free thinking young adults".



What a clown.

Following the death of her mother Shamima Begum was groomed by two Islamist extremists into joining ISIS, taken to Gatwick airport and put her on a flight to Turkey from where she travelled to Syria.



Your comparison doesn't hold up to even the most cursory inspection.

[patman post]

In my case that involved around 400 stitches, broken ribs, multiple fractures to my right leg, and a dislocated kneecap.

(Not from one incident and that is not comprehensive list.)

I'm guessing not wearing head protection is the cause of many zany ideas...

[papasmurf]

We have all made mistakes in our lives who has not

In my case that involved around 400 stitches, broken ribs, multiple fractures to my right leg, and a dislocated kneecap.

(Not from one incident and that is not comprehensive list.)

[Churchill]

I have brought up children so yes I know how impressionable and gullible some children can be even adults both can be manipulated by their peers, perhaps her parents did not, however being Muslims they surely must have been more aware of radicalization being used by Extreme Muslim terrorists, locally in some Mosques and on line, even none Muslims knew



She was mature and devious enough to get herself and two other girls out of the UK into Turkey then find a way across the border into Syria, so not an idiot or naïve but rather cunning and determined.IMO



We have all made mistakes in our lives who has not,however we have to live with those mistakes, no I cannot agree with you she will have to live with her mistakes  we will have to agree to disagree

[T00ts]

I cannot feel sorry for her being brutally honest her fault is she really sorry for what she did? I don't think so,



Being a Muslim she should have known what the men she was determined to support and sleep with is towards women, they have scant or little regard for women who must obey them

I don't see that at all. Perhaps you have been a 15 yr old girl and speak from experience. These girls were gullible and manipulated. What chance do we suppose they honestly had, having taken the gifts offered of travel, glamour, a religious fervour that they were swept away with. Do we really and honestly believe that these girls brought up in the West, didn't think they had made a mistake? Do we really believe they didn't harden their hearts etc to  fit in and stay alive?

Just because they were from Muslim homes doesn't mean they were that different from any other girls. To me the little bit of careully edited film/interview shows a young woman closed down emotionally, traumatised to a point where she no longer knows what she feels or thinks.  We should bring her back and try to unravel her and try and give her a decent future. If she proves to be a monster then we shold act accordingly, but in my heart of hearts I believe she is just a girl who took a massive wrong turn. Does that mean there is no forgiveness? Not in my book.