Labour now says it would reopen Brexit talks if in power

[patman post]

Although many people seem concerned with the working class, their views of them seem to range from feckless scroungers, through downtrodden and exploited, to the currently ignored salt of the earth. If Labour is now being criticised for not representing such a diverse collection, what better than a broad spectrum of the population than "Working People" (which includes employed and unemployed seeking work, their families, and those unable to work) for Labour to champion? But if Labour cannot get its act together and appeal to more voters, it will not be an effective opposition. And government will remain a distant hope...

[Borchester]

But Capitalism now has to survive. The likes of Brighthouse, Car Phone Warehouse have given expensive goods that once where the trappings of the rich to everyone. The man in the street with his simple life and 18" CRT TV in the corner is now the man with an iPhone 13, Sky TV and 56" OLED on the wall. He has had to join the race to the top of the greasy capitalist pole in order to pay for all this stuff. Labour MP's, who are made up of a lot of £illionaires, are sitting at the top of the pole dropping crumbs down to their members only to find that their members are now half way up the pole. Labour have lost the connection to the masses and now only have the ear of die hards that refuse to ride the Capitalist wave.

I have to say Nick, that when I think of all those billionaires down to their last three or four Ferraris I can't help but think, F@@@ 'em. The point at issue is not some rightwing Randite fantasies, but that the Labour party no longer supports or even recognises today's working class, but concentrates its energies on a few right on academics, Islington media types and members of the non working class who only joined the party because membership was on special offer.

[Nick]

How about a referendum to allow the Labour party to leave the UK?

This is going to sound schmultzy and maybe I am seeing the past through rose tinted eyeballs, but my memories were of a Labour party that wanted to screw British capitalism because, well sod it, that was what British capitalism was for. But it was for British workers, not some low life who got himself beaten to death for passing dud cheques on the other side of the work.

Nowadays we seem to have a party run by a bunch of woke wankers who are desperate to find something to feel guilty about and who think an American spanner is a pop group.

So how about we start with places such as Brent, Tottenham and Hackney? I can't see Dawn Butler or David Lammy giving a quick nod as the old flag goes by and I doubt poor bloody Diane Abbott knows where hers is (head that is), there certainly isn't much in it. But they are continually being re elected by their adoring electorate. So allow those three areas a referendum and if they want to join the EU or anywhere else that is daft enough to take then goodbye and thanks for sod all.

But Capitalism now has to survive. The likes of Brighthouse, Car Phone Warehouse have given expensive goods that once where the trappings of the rich to everyone. The man in the street with his simple life and 18" CRT TV in the corner is now the man with an iPhone 13, Sky TV and 56" OLED on the wall. He has had to join the race to the top of the greasy capitalist pole in order to pay for all this stuff. Labour MP's, who are made up of a lot of £illionaires, are sitting at the top of the pole dropping crumbs down to their members only to find that their members are now half way up the pole. Labour have lost the connection to the masses and now only have the ear of die hards that refuse to ride the Capitalist wave.

[Borchester]

How about a referendum to allow the Labour party to leave the UK?

This is going to sound schmultzy and maybe I am seeing the past through rose tinted eyeballs, but my memories were of a Labour party that wanted to screw British capitalism because, well sod it, that was what British capitalism was for. But it was for British workers, not some low life who got himself beaten to death for passing dud cheques on the other side of the work.

Nowadays we seem to have a party run by a bunch of woke wankers who are desperate to find something to feel guilty about and who think an American spanner is a pop group.

So how about we start with places such as Brent, Tottenham and Hackney? I can't see Dawn Butler or David Lammy giving a quick nod as the old flag goes by and I doubt poor bloody Diane Abbott knows where hers is (head that is), there certainly isn't much in it. But they are continually being re elected by their adoring electorate. So allow those three areas a referendum and if they want to join the EU or anywhere else that is daft enough to take then goodbye and thanks for sod all.

[Thomas]

I'm not convinced anyone knows what they are, even the party them selves!

Not so sure about that nick.

I think labour know exactly what they are , as srb steve has said many a time .

I also think the public dont need to know in depth political analysis to understand the labour party arent on their side.

We would be here for a few hours ryhming off labours long and inglorious list of treachery over the past decades.

[Nick]

but the basic problem is labour are seen as the enemy of the english and scottish working classes , and the party of the liberal middle classes especially down in the south of england

I'm not convinced anyone knows what they are, even the party them selves!

[Thomas]

Your right, 2 voted remain and 2 voted leave, the democratic union of the UK, it wouldn't have mattered if all 3 voted remain.

Dont give me the "concern troll " crap about the democracy of the bwitish union.

Had scotland ,wales and northern ireland voted to leave , and england remain , we wouldnt be hearing a cheep out of you about the big bad english keeping the celts in the EU.

Our problem in scotland is the same as its always been......the feckwits in our own nation who spend too much time bed wetting about leaving the uk .

I understand and accept. It's you who keep's saying that. I have moved on, we are now talking about what happens after brexit, it only started earlier this yr.

You dont accept. You are constantly re raking voer the coals of the 2016 referendum , and disingenously reinterpreting what happend tosuit your latest remain fantasy. For exmaple , you implied only England voted leave , it didnt so i corrected you , and you were trying to imply that a 52/48 clear majority was "more grey than black and white , which is bollocks.

So no you havent accepted it , and are constantly trying to insinuate that somehow brexit wasnt a legitimate result  , when it was.

Democracy is not a once in a life time deal.

I have never suggested it was. I regualrly say demcoracy itself is a never endum  ,and that all you need to do to overturn brexit is get a political party , currently labour to get voted into power and they will reverse it.

The problem i and many others had post 2016 to 2019 was the denial of democracy by the anti demcoratic remainers in westmisnter , who tried to chicken out of implemting the brexit result , with predictable consequences.

Now , you are too chicken shit scared of labour standing on a re join ticket , as you know and i know they will get squashed by the english public. So you think the best way is to sneak the uk back in by the back door , and tie the uk to regualtions , customs union or whatever to become members of the EU in everything BUT name .

Brexit was never something the UK people wanted,

It was , just as in 2014 staying in the uk was what scottish people wanted.

Again you deny reality . The electorate were all offered a vote on it , and those who bothered turning out are the ones who counted , and remain couldnt win , while leave had the majority vote. Denial is a terrible thing , almost a mental health issue in my opinion.

Theres no i in denial gerry , did you know that?

as brexit unfolds we will see the reaction from both groups

We will . Somehow i cant see this invisible army of remainers  that never appear at election time , only in the mids of the deluded , running to the polls to vote in labour to triumphantly take the uk back into your beloved EU.

I suppose every man needs his dreams and fantasies to get him through each day.

The UK FPTP voting system works for the UK but it's far from an ideal democratic system, it will nearly always produce a govt representing a minority of the people.

Sure so now more whinging about the brexit ref as though it was some unfair result brought about by cheating when the uk has to live by the farce that is FPTP every single election.

If 20 odd percent of the electorate was good enough for blair and his landlside majority in 2001 , then 17.4 million , 52 % of the turnout was good enough for brexit in 2016.

I do know what remain had to do, lie a lot more than the conservatives,

What are you talking about now you numpty?

The conservatives headed the pro english remain group in 2016 ?the majority of their mps , the tory prime minisnter cameron and major tory politicians were all remianers , and the problem was you say was the lies they told to the english electorate to get them to remain in the EU , which backfired spectacularly.

Unfortunately for cameron , the english were made of sterner stuff then my fellow countrymen in 2014. Much to your resentment im sure.

Either way it doesn't matter, you need to move on, brexit happened.

I have moved on , what i , and everyone else on this forum is having to constantly do is correct your continued remain lies , and reraking over the coals of 2016 because you lost , and cant accept democracy.

It doesn't, brexit can't live up to what Johnson and Co. promised, to win an election it's best to do nothing when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot. As the brexit sunny uplands unravels the conservatives only have themselves to blame. Best they are left in Govt or they will blame all the issues to come on whoever gets in

Brexit has lived up to what brexiters wanted ......to get out the EU. The sunny uplands is your invention not anyone elses.

You dont understand people do you gerry? You think they are motivated by wealth , or economics , and brexit proved beyond any doubt that history and nationalism played a large part , and you cant handle that fact.

I think it was auld borkie who told you many a time the english would rather lose a bob or two than live under johnny foreigners rule , and you cant face it or accept it , instead constantly re running the lost economic argument.

Actually I'd welcome Scotland leaving, Ireland got out and we are far better off because of it and so would Scotland I would think.

We in scotland will leave the uk for our own reasons  , not to satisfy the spite of a petty little europhile like you , who hates the english for daring to leave his european union.

And like I say why do you think the EU would accept the UK back, I doubt they would.

If only that were true eh gerry , you wouldnt be on here constantly lecturing people about how bad they were leaving your beloved eu in the first place.

You make a fool of yourself every time you put knuckle to keyboard in frustration about brexit.

I couldn't care less if labour did or didn't get into power.

But the electorate will be vocal and you might find a new breed that will sing a new tune and hang borris out to dry.

You have been telling us for the last five years( remainers in general) that the public may change their minds , and yet every election , they turn round and back brexit.

5-0 to brexiters isnt it?

where is this silent remain majority that never ever appears come voting time gerry? All in your warped head i think:D

But then that's all down to covid 

Gerry thats your luck though isnt it?

Just when you are getting all psyched up to see brexit enacted  , and you start rubbing your hands in glee wishing for all sorts of misfortune to happento the uk for daring to leave the european empire , along come covid , a once in a 100 year event to scupper all your propaganda.

Fortune favours the brave gerry , that why brexiters won on 2016 , and why johnson won a landslide in 2019.

You said in the first reply that if Labour got in they would look to rejoin.

I did , but do you notice the word officially in my last reply to you?

Like you have insinuated, i think labour are shit scared of offering a referendum on rejoin terms, what they will do is as you hinted at rejoining by the back door in all but name ,rather than officially announcing it.

Remember this was the same labour party that didnt want a scot indy ref , and didnt want a brexit ref , when even the daft liberals made fun out of labour for chickening out.

Labour dont like democracy , or the people having a voice as we all know.

The UK is in the customs union and does follow EU laws.

explain yourself?

Westminster does look weak and ridiculous worldwide. Didn't you know that ?  look at what it's been doing the past 6 yrs.

You are just sounding petulant now gerry.

[Thomas]

I see Starmer in the light of his previous occupation, the Public Prosecutor. To him every issue and every policy is simply a case to be won and won by any means using any argument that seems to sway a Jury. There is no strategy in this, no linking up or bigger picture.
Add to that, he is a Barrister and simply handles the cases he is handed. I am sure he has no vision of his own and simply delivers via monotonous nasally drone the result desired by his client.

Great analysis sampan , and i fully agree.

To be fair to starmer though , i think labours problems go far deeper than the personality (or lack of personality) of the leader.

They have many issues that are hamstringing them as we have discussed , but the basic problem is labour are seen as the enemy of the english and scottish working classes , and the party of the liberal middle classes especially down in the south of england , and until that changes , they wont ever be back in power.

I said this before , but wether its scot indy  , or brexit , whatever the issue facing people , labour for some strange reason always seem to take the opposite side of the public with predictable results.

This "we know best , you are just stupid voters" attitude has long hampered them as a political party.

[cromwell]

What thread was that in again ?

Farmers thread and you saying how awful it is migrant workers exploited,not like that in the eu according to you. 

[GerryT]

So what you are saying is that our vote which is supposed to be private in the ballot box wasn't? Or has someone fed a computer programme and got the preferred answer?

Exit Polls I presume.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/

[GerryT]

Still too busy?
I'm not fretting btw.

What thread was that in again ?

[GerryT]

....and wales.

You understand it , but you dont accept it which is your big problem and why you cannot move on.

Your right, 2 voted remain and 2 voted leave, the democratic union of the UK, it wouldn't have mattered if all 3 voted remain.
I understand and accept. It's you who keep's saying that. I have moved on, we are now talking about what happens after brexit, it only started earlier this yr.

52/48 was a majority decision however you inspect it , or reinterpret it  , it doesnt matter..

Landslide in uk terms is a pretty ambiguous word in the language of the english.

For example , tony blairs so called landslide victory in the 2001 uk general election is a perfect example of what i am saying , where he won 40 % of the vote off the back of a miserly 59 % turnout , one of the lowest in modern uk electoral victories.

80 % or thereabouts of the electorate didnt vote for tony , or decided to not vote at all , but it still didnt stop him and his party taking the reigns of power and triumphantly calling  his victory a landslide.

So im not sure whats difficult to understand about a simple yes no referendum where 50plus 1 of the turnout wins the day.

You knew what remain had to do , and they couldnt do it , so lost.

Yes 52/48 is a majority but it very much matters. Democracy is not a once in a life time deal. Brexit was never something the UK people wanted, it was what 17.4m people wanted, as brexit unfolds we will see the reaction from both groups. The UK FPTP voting system works for the UK but it's far from an ideal democratic system, it will nearly always produce a govt representing a minority of the people. I do know what remain had to do, lie a lot more than the conservatives, it was the only way they could have had a chance. Either way it doesn't matter, you need to move on, brexit happened.

I think it does gerry  and this is where you are in denial. The tories are shit scared of farage and other brexiters sitting watching their every move. The only chance you have of some eu membership or rule tying excercise by the back door is for labour to get into power in the near future , one half of a two horse race political system.

The longer brexit goes on and armageddon hasnt struck the more people are getting used to being outside the eu , the liklier they are to remain outside .Remember , the difficulty is in changing the status quo , as we found in 2014. Brexiters have tapped into the anti european english feeling , which runs through every generation  , because of the history england has with the europeans especially the french and germans .

You must be hoping scotland doesnt leave the uk , the EU doesnt implode , you need everythig to remain as it is and the uk to change its mind and i say thats a tall order.

It doesn't, brexit can't live up to what Johnson and Co. promised, to win an election it's best to do nothing when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot. As the brexit sunny uplands unravels the conservatives only have themselves to blame. Best they are left in Govt or they will blame all the issues to come on whoever gets in.
As countries emerge (hopefully) from Covid and start to get back to where they were, the UK will see this is far more difficult to achieve. People will look at the promises and see the reality, lets see what happens then.
Actually I'd welcome Scotland leaving, Ireland got out and we are far better off because of it and so would Scotland I would think. Why would the EU implode, the one country that worked against the union from inside is now outside. And like I say why do you think the EU would accept the UK back, I doubt they would.

Ah...the infamous new labour "jam tomorrow" syndrome as we call it in scotland.

in case its escaped your notice gerry , brexit was voted on 5 years ago , and since the vote happened  , all i have heard is labour party types talking about jam tomorrow and hoping for a change in the weather.

No matter how low the tories go , and lets be honest , theresa mays government was one of thw worst tory governments in history , labour still couldnt capitalise ....in fact labour have lost ground in scotland and northren england with only the taffs still sleepwalking into voting for them.

How many more chances do you want?

Labour are despised throughout this island , you just dont realise it yet.

It is best if the conservatives stay in power or Labour will get blamed on all the conservative failings since this sorry story started. If they are in power in 5 or 10 yrs time then people will see through the lies. I couldn't care less if labour did or didn't get into power. But the electorate will be vocal and you might find a new breed that will sing a new tune and hang borris out to dry.

Has it?

You over egged the pudding and promised armageddon , and it hasnt happened now you are being ridiculed.

Brexit hasnt been anywhere near what you said it would be , and it hasnt been the brexiter utopis , and i think most folk are settling down and accepting it as the norm now. The clock is ticking and you are nearly out of time .

You'll find it was brexiteers promising the sky would fall in or doom and gloom. It's always been a death by a thousand cuts, even Rees Mogg said it would be 50yrs before brexit benefits would be seen. Of course he said that after the vote and didn't look to put that on the side of a bus.
The only Jam being thrown around was the 350m a week for the NHS, or easiest trade deal in human history. But all you have is a border down the middle of the UK, a deflated currency, fishing - fruit & veg and many other industries feeling the pain. But then that's all down to covid 

You are playing semantics yet again gerry.

where have i said about officially rejoining?

i said you have mentioned now a thousand times about the uk being tied to eu rules , or custom union or whatever  , and it aint happening by the back door front door or any feckin door.

Westminster in my opinion cannot ask to rejoin in an official capacity , as i have said many a time it would make them look weak and ridiculous worldwide.

some dirty deal tying the uk to rules and regualtions , some membership in name only  back door deal is your best hope , which looks as far away today as it did 3 years ago.

You said in the first reply that if Labour got in they would look to rejoin.

The UK is in the customs union and does follow EU laws.

Westminster does look weak and ridiculous worldwide. Didn't you know that ?  look at what it's been doing the past 6 yrs.

[cromwell]

So what you are saying is that our vote which is supposed to be private in the ballot box wasn't? Or has someone fed a computer programme and got the preferred answer?

Gerry is still regurgitating the fallacy we all voted because of a load of crap on the side of a bus and that no one told us we would be leaving the single market and much else.

[T00ts]

60% of over 65 voted leave
73% of 18 to 24 voted remain.

So what you are saying is that our vote which is supposed to be private in the ballot box wasn't? Or has someone fed a computer programme and got the preferred answer?

[cromwell]

Yes ,and in 50 years 100% of them will be over 65